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Local opinions strong on passage of Prop 8

By Shannon Milliken
smilliken@HanfordSentinel.com

Local residents strongly voiced their opinion Wednesday on the outcome of the most controversial California proposition of Tuesday's election. After weeks of rallies and demonstrations hosted by Proposition 8's supporters and its opponents, it all came down to a difference of about 504,500 votes. By Wednesday morning, California officials announced that Prop 8 had passed, with 52.5 percent of the votes. The remaining 47.5 percent of voters opposed the measure that will return the ban on gay marriage in the state.

Local residents were not quiet about their opinions on Prop 8 in the weeks leading up to Tuesday -- and they were not quiet after the official results were announced. Supporters expressed their satisfaction with the vote, but opponents vowed that the battle is not over.

Katherine Andes of Hanford, a supporter of Prop 8, said Wednesday she was pleased with the outcome.

"It shows that even though a lot of people went for [Barack] Obama, a lot of those people voted for traditional values," Andes said. "People don't realize the ramifications of marriage between a man and a woman. It's based on an understanding of natural law."

April Silva, a Hanford teacher and active opponent of Prop 8, said Wednesday that she was disappointed but optimistic.

"You have to think about how many people voted no for it," Silva said. "And that alone should give you some hope. We just have to continue to be strong and be proud of who we are.

"I know something is going to come out of it. There will be a petition or something and we will continue to fight for our rights."

Myndi Hardgrave, a teacher at Hanford West High School, echoed Silva's disappointment and added that she was angry. Hardgrave said she felt like Rosa Parks.

"I was given a right to sit in the front of the bus and then it was taken away," Hardgrave said. "It's like telling a slave you can have four months of freedom but then you've got to come back and be my slave again.

"I said the Pledge of Allegiance with my students this morning and all I could think of was 'liberty and justice for all.' And California just made it liberty and justice for all straight people."

Hardgrave, who is homosexual and the advisor of Hanford West's Gay Straight Alliance, added that opponents to a ban on gay marriage have made a lot of progress in that they only lost by 5 percent of votes.

"It's just one battle in a huge war," Hardgrave said. "We're used to setbacks but we will come back stronger next time. We will not lose again.

"I truly believe we will win this fight -- it's just a matter of time. I'm angry because I felt like this was the time. But we're not giving up. We're not going away. In the end the right side will prevail. We will win the civil rights that are due us."

John Chabrajez, a Hanford resident who works as a detentions deputy in Tulare County, told a Sentinel reporter Tuesday night that he voted yes on Proposition 8.

"I believe in traditional marriage," Chabrajez said. "It's extremely important, based on my faith and my religion. I don't believe in marriage between members of the same sex."

Frank Silva, a Hanford business owner, said he was happy that Prop 8 passed, but surprised the race was so close.

"I think it's more of a morality issue," Silva said. "But also definitely protecting the sanctity of marriage -- probably more religious. You can't legislate morality, but at the same time, when men want to marry men and women want to marry women, I just don't think it's right.

"I think it's common sense. It's practicality. I think it's interesting that things are getting closer and closer. Things that you thought were practical and simple aren't practical and simple anymore."

The reporter can be reached at 583-2424.

(Nov. 7, 2008)

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The following are comments from the readers. In no way do they represent the views of the Hanford Sentinel

bluefish wrote on Nov 6, 2008 1:25 PM:

" Apparently California cares more about the rights of farm animals than the rights of it's citizens who happen to be gay. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 6, 2008 4:36 PM:

" Ms. Fish to the tune of 75 % of the vote in Kings County. For some reason those numbers are no longer being released for public notification. "

amsaal wrote on Nov 6, 2008 6:35 PM:

" Oops! Typo bluefish, it's not "citizens who happen to be gay," It should read, "citizens who choose to be gay." Obviously less than half the voters in California buy into that PR hogwash. Homosexuals of the straight state of California, please stop acting like your sex choices make you a minority. No one wants to hear it. Move on...... "

Proud Dad wrote on Nov 6, 2008 8:52 PM:

" How is it that we know how many votes that Prop 8 won by, but we do not know who is the winning candidate between Gilmore and Florez? "

B. wrote on Nov 6, 2008 10:17 PM:

" The people of Calif. have spoken twice now on this issue. If you`re not happy with the results, you have the option of moving to another state that supports you. "

ann wrote on Nov 7, 2008 4:40 AM:

" Marriage has always been between a man and women and the thought of people wanting destroy the meaning of it make me sicken. Also we had voted 2 times and the people have spoken we don’t want our bible destroy or our faith and our kids being force onto this.I am disappointed at the Mayor Gavin Newsom for wanting to destroy marriage for his personal selfish reasons and wasting tax payers money. homosexual is a illness same goes by bipolar and sic so farina. God didn’t made Adam and Steve or sue and eve if he did we all be a bunch of snails instead of people. I am shame of governor and the judges and that mayor of san Francisco all them are wasting tax payers money on a illness and trying to force it on everyone instead of treating it. The homosexual people are miss using the story of Rosa parks. Rosa parks case was about her color not about homosexual. I know people who came to be homosexual because it like a gang they get attion and they try to push this onto people. "

Angie wrote on Nov 7, 2008 10:29 AM:

" Rosa Parks??? How can you compare the lust of homosexuality (immoral) to civil rights??
No way Mindy. There's no comparison.
Gays have the same rights as everyone already. Just because you want to spit on the sanctity of marriage doesn't make you a victim or a minority. "

Deb wrote on Nov 7, 2008 11:00 AM:

" The question of the day... can the "people" create constitutional amendments. "

equality wrote on Nov 7, 2008 12:54 PM:

" First off, animals deserve to have their rights too, so please stop saying that we care more about them than people.

It is absolutely disgusting to me that Prop-8 was passed. It is disgusting to me that people think homosexuality is a "disease", or a choice that people make just to get some attention.

ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL.

Stop worrying about what some storytale book (The Bible) says about how you should live your life, and give some respect to your fellow man.

I don't care what your race, gender or sexual orientation is, EVERYONE deserves respect, and EVERYONE deserves the same rights NO MATTER WHAT.

Prop 8 will be overturned in time. This fight will not end until there is equality for all. "

proudteach wrote on Nov 7, 2008 2:46 PM:

" "...the wonderful thing about man; he never gets so discouraged or disgusted that he gives up...because he knows very well it is important and worth the doing." from Fahrenheit 451 by Ray Bradbury.
People, history is not on your side!!! The bible and strong "convictions" have been used to discriminate against anyone who "wasn't like them." The bible was used to defend slave ownership, Jim Crowe laws, lynchings, and to prevent interracial marriages. I'm not shocked that that same bible is being used again to discriminate against the GLBT community. However, those of you who are now wollowing in your victory in passing a discriminatory amendment to CA constitution need to revisit your history books. Your predjudicial beliefs and the bible most of you hide your hate and disgust behind will be defeated by history itself. This society will only put up with your pitiful excuse for discimination for so long. Don't sleep too deeply because your temporary moment of victory will be far more short lived then you dreamed. The GLBT community will not settle for less then EQUAL. We aren't leaving or quitting. Sorry to break the news to you. "

bluefalcon559 wrote on Nov 7, 2008 5:46 PM:

" You know what disgusts me...people that are so "butt hurt" that the "MAJORITY" spoke and passed PROP 8 banning "gay marriage".Look, it's not that I don't like gay people or whatever, I personally don't have a problem with gay people, though I do feel that marriage should be between a man and a woman, not a man-man or woman-woman.Call it morals, call it values, call it believes, call it whatever, bottom line, it is what it is.

I am though very frustrated because regardless of what the majority vote for, PROP NO supporters still cannot except that fact that they lost and continue to lose for something that obviously the majority of people in this nation not just California feel is wrong; gay marriage.

I personally voted yes on PROP 8, and I voted for Senator John McCain which for that vote I lost...it's not a big deal to me, who cares. I'm not crying about it, nor should those with "alternative lifestyles" that wanted to have the right to be married in California. "

bluefalcon559 wrote on Nov 7, 2008 5:49 PM:

" Now PROP 8 NO supporters want to fight this issue and spend my tax dollars to take this to the highest courts in our land, the Supreme Court. I think it's BS... because some liberal judge in the State will first overturn what the overwhelming majority of voters passed, again allowing those with "Alternative Lifestyles" to marry again...then conservatives will sue again and take it to the Federal Supreme Court spending more of my hard earned money that could be going to this state to rebuild its economic power in the world.

Shame on everyone that is fighting this issue! Let it go! "

lizzylou wrote on Nov 7, 2008 5:59 PM:

" YES I care about the rights of animals! YES, I care about the rights of humans! NO I will NOT use the bible as a tool to rationalize MY viewpoint. If you are gay/lesbian, whatever floats your boat. If you are straight, whatever floats your boat. As long as no one is being forced, harrassed or hurt, then do your thing I say.
It's simply a matter of time before prop. 8 is overturned.
I am not a hypocrite.
Hey B. you are sure up late posting. "

joe citizen wrote on Nov 7, 2008 6:08 PM:

" To: proudteach
So what your saying is that your going to keep beating that dead horse until he gets up and walks YOUR way. What the majority of the people want doesn't matter only what you want. Is that about it?
To the rest of you who were against Prop8: I could be wrong (and I'm sure you'll tell me I am) but I'm thinking that "marriage" is a religious thing (or sanctity, if you will) and if seems that you don't think that much of the bible or things pertaining to the bible, so why do you need to be "married"?
I don't think being gay is a sickness, I think its a choice but I don't think you should be able to get married and neither did the MAJORITY of the people. When you drive your car, the speed you drive is a choice, people decided on a speed limit and exceeding the speed limit is against the law. Not everyone agrees on the limits but this is something that the majority has decided to go with. Last I checked, the MAJORITY rules.... "

joe citizen wrote on Nov 7, 2008 6:36 PM:

" To: equality

It's nice to see that "you" think The Bible is just a "storytale book". Millions of people base their religions on the word of God and I'm sure they care even less about you not being able to marry someone of the same sex when you call The Bible a "storytale book". You say to, "show some respect to your fellow man" but you don't show respect to the majority of your fellow men. The majority has spoken, twice....
And if, "EVERYONE deserves the same rights" then lets get rid of age limits for drinking or driving, if you can reach the pedals, have at it! If you can pay for it you can buy it.... Is that how you see it? C'mon! There's always been limits and the majority of the people set those limits and we live with it. "

proudteach wrote on Nov 7, 2008 7:08 PM:

" Angie, let's consult Webster's Dictionary on the definition of a minority. "a group thought to be different (GLBT) from a larger group from which it is a part (human race), a group have little representation relative to other groups in society".
I'm pretty sure the LGBT community fits all parts of that definition and when youconsider the social definition of a minority, being a small group that is singled out for differential treatment they certainly fit the bill. It kinds hard to argue with Webster, so I'd say the Rosa Parks argument fits to a tee. Just because you find these people disgusting doesn't make you right. The ignorance of some of the people in this town would be unimaginable if it weren't plastered all over this "blog". "

Devils Advocate wrote on Nov 7, 2008 8:36 PM:

" GiLBerTs? GiBLeTs? GoBLeTs?
Ok, so the Gilberts will not be silenced. My question: have they ever been silent? We keep hearing over and over again: ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL.
But what we forget all about is how the Declaration of Independence preambles that idea:
WE HOLD THESE TRUTHS TO BE SELF-EVIDENT
Just what is self-evident truth? Logically, it would be truth that is obviously discerned. Truth like the obvious natural mode of behavior in a species with two complimentary, interdependent sexes. For the benefit of a less-stressful life to the Gilberts, we are already making light of one self-evident truth for a greater one - the greater being that you are free to do what you want with your own parts because they are YOUR parts.
That doesn't mean the truth goes away, and it doesn't mean we should start lying about it just to spare the feelings of people that have been demanding that we stay out of their bedrooms for decades. These same people are DEMANDING that we extend special rights to them BECAUSE of what they do in their bedrooms. Anyone else wish they'd stop contradicting themselves? "

B. wrote on Nov 7, 2008 11:45 PM:

" equality......homosexuality is a disease, a very unhealthy one. You were out voted by the moral people in this state....YOU and people like you stop trying to change it. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 7, 2008 11:48 PM:

" amsaal it is not a typo, we are born this way, what we choose is to not live in secrecy and hide who we are. We are a minority, deal with it. I guess with your logic you chose to be heterosexual right? That means that we were all created with the ability to be gay right? Get real, you did not choose to be heterosexual and I did not choose to be homosexual. Why would anyone choose to go thru what we go thru?Being called names, murdered, raped, discriminated against,..the list goes on. Yeah that is a choice anyone would make...get real. PR hogwash? How about spending millions on ads that lie to the citzens of California? Like homosexual marriage would be taught in schools, they do not even teach heterosexual marriage why would they teach homosexual marriage? How about taking tax exempt status from churches? Last I checked a church could deny to marry someone based on the fact that they do not think that couple has what it takes to be married. I have not noticed any churches loosing their tax exempt status over that. Now that is PR hogwash. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 8, 2008 12:01 AM:

" ann...lol a gang? Are you serious or are you just reaching for something to say? We do not go out looking to recruit. Homosexuality is not an illness, I am a lesbian and I have a clean bill of health, both physically and mentally. There is no need for treatment. Your bible and your faith has nothing to do with me and if your faith can be dystroyed by someone other than yourself maybe you need to do some soul searching. How is same sex marriage going to dystroy your bible? It will still read the same right? It will still look the same on your shelf right? Again your children will not be forced to learn anything in school you do not approve, California has laws giving parents control over what their children learn. Jehovas Witnesses can take their children out of class during holiday celebrations, why do you think it would be any different? As for associating with Rosa Parks that is because she did not choose her skin color and we do not choose who we are attracted too. By the way we are all tax-payers too,.. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 8, 2008 12:03 AM:

" B. The same goes for you, if you do not like me fighting for my equality there are alot of more conservative states you can move yourself too. No one is going to tell me to leave my home just because they do not like that I want equality "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 8, 2008 5:54 AM:

" Deb wrote on Nov 7, 2008 1:00 PM:

What a redundant question, were it not people who drafted the Constitution of the United States. Of course they can. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 8, 2008 6:00 AM:

" QUESTION OF THE DAY! Now that same sex marriage is band in California, can we get rid of those ridiculous new marriage licenses and go back to the one's with Bride and Groom on them now?

So a man and a woman won't be considered Party A and Party B. For those who wanted equality I am surprised that wasn't a concern.

All the millions to fight both sides to print the forms to change government could have gone a long way to help out homeless, education, many other far reaching and more important considerations in this state, Arizona and Florida.

The part that the Same Sex Choicers are still not getting is homosexuality is not a Right it is a Choice! A Choice not to be heterosexual, if nothing else. But still a matter of choice it has nothing to do with a persons rights! Wants, Choices, Preferances Maybe, but certainly not Rights! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 8, 2008 6:08 AM:

" Melissa, Deb, Ms. Fish, proud teach et al: How say you that you live in a community that clearly, undeniably does not support your cause? The vote in Kings County for yes amounted to 75% of the vote making you a 25% minority who think they can overturn our decision that marriage should remain between a man and a woman. None of you get how ridiculous this sounds, the choice of an ice cream wins with less consideration. Buying a pool for everyone vs a recliner for dad wins with less consideration. You can't even consider yourselves a vast minority. You are a pin prick in society. This vote was not close, it wasn't even a landslide it was a complete obliteration. 25% of us could have not voted and you still would have have been defeated by twice your number. By all means don't give up, but don't use public funds for something the public doesn't believe in. I am sure that the CTA got a clear cut message out of this vote as well, I would expect to see some replacements required. "

Jim wrote on Nov 8, 2008 6:23 AM:

" I voted for it and I would vote for it again! If I did not agree with a states laws I would move to one that accommodated my needs. I would suggest you out there that are not happy with the current laws and apparent wishes of the majority do the same. I would like to know what gives people the right to force their views and beliefs on others? You want to be straight, then do so. You want to go a different direction then that's your choice. Either way it does not give you the right to try to jam your way of life down the public's throat! This is not the first time that the people of this state have voted to keep marriage between a man and a woman. There are other states out there more accepting, I am sure they would welcome you. "

Wacky! wrote on Nov 8, 2008 10:09 AM:

" I could solve this problem fairly easily right here in this forum!

To ensure that everyone is treated equally, we will ban all marriages and uphold "the seperation of church and state"

Ta da!

I'll be collecting signatures at walmart! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 8, 2008 2:13 PM:

" Melissa wrote on Nov 8, 2008 1:48 AM:

I get it now, Melissa. You couldn't get Prop 8 passed so now you want to visit a church's right to tax exempt status. Yet I didn't hear you speak up when we discovered Scott Tucker can exempt up to $94,000.00 of his taxable income? He is a teacher over seas, so now do you want to take his exemption away too, because your Proposition failed. You shouldn't he voted for your side there was just too many of me and not enough of him to back you up.
As demonstrated 75% of the county of kings voters said; YES TO PROPOSITION 8 (75%) ladies and gentlemen, that is three fourths of the population in Kings County. That means minorities had to have supported this Proposition overwhelmingly for it to pass with those kind of numbers. So, so much for this being another minority grievance. The numbers partaking in the lifestyle are a minority but that is the only minority support you all have. Give it up, live like you've lived prior to this mess and let it go. Twice defeated! "

Alihandero wrote on Nov 8, 2008 3:27 PM:

" Lets at least be correct:

"The phrase "separation of church and state"...does not appear in the Constitution itself."

(Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_men_are_created_equal)

It only says that the ‘State' or the Government, cannot establish any official religion. "

B. wrote on Nov 8, 2008 5:51 PM:

" Melissa.......judging from what`s been reported in the news this past week with all the violent protests throughout Ca. I`m now totally convinced homosexuality is a "BEHAVIOR" problem. Now you want to burn churches, threaten people`s lives, try to overturn the moral people`s vote once again. You people.......are out of your minds. "

Devil's Advocate wrote on Nov 8, 2008 6:16 PM:

" Actually, Wacky!, given the choice between legitimizing same-sex marriage or completely eliminating the recognition of marriage altogether as a state-sponsor institution, I'd rather see it eliminated entirely.

And for those of you that think that being a part of a "minority" should automatically result in protected status, I'd like to point out that felons are a minority group, people that like to eat liver and onions are a minority group, people that drive stick shifts, speak Romanian, or own parakeets are, too. In Kings County, even registered Republicans are a minority of voters. "

Christina_Ambrosi wrote on Nov 8, 2008 10:27 PM:

" OMG peoples. I understand that this was a big step forward for Prop 8 to fail at the polls, and to allow gays/lesbians to be legally married. I voted NO on Prop 8...but there is nothing more we can do by blog complaining.
There is one person that, if some of you are so persistent to get them the same rights as heterosexual couples, can change it. THE GOVENOR!!!
He has the power to ammend the already existent 'Domestic Partnership' legalities. I, personally, have already emailed him. No one seems to realize that this state is beyond broke. By allowing homosexual couples to have a 'civil service' similar to that of a marriage can actually help our failing economy. Heck...they may even require the services of a caterer, florist, etc. IDK about you, but I think that this will help out California.
Those of you interested, google california state govenor and go to Govenor Schwartzenegger's homepage. On the bottom there are several links. Just click on Email the Govenor.
Make your voice heard, instead of blog complaining!!! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 9, 2008 11:07 AM:

" To: Christina_Ambrosi wrote on Nov 9, 2008 12:27 AM:

Absolutely solicit the help of a lame duck Govenor, I implore you, please do so on his way out of office. You don't get it Arnold should realize by now that changing this decision of the majority of the people is political suicide. He has asperations to run for other office.

If he even thinks he will win the support of the voting California politic, he knows he can't touch this. Even his willing wife Maria, is not going to touch this with a ten foot pole.

It's called creditability Christina, they both are low on the totum pole with Californian's for the lousy job he has done as govenator.

He does something as anti-Califonrian as backing another turn of events on Proposition 8. He might as well park his Hummer and return to his homeland. Because like a baked potato, will be done, in politics.

He already has to go to the Federal Government with his hand held out for over 4 billion dollars in loans he calls them. From surplus to deficit. "

seriously wrote on Nov 9, 2008 11:12 AM:

" Pledge cards for kindergartners, children going to their gay teachers wedding as a FIELD TRIP! SURE, there is no way gay marriage or homosexuality are going to be taught in our schools. Gays think it is appropriate to put out literature (and dont tell me it is for tolerance, it is for acceptance) and expect OUR schools to teach this cra* to our kids. So that argument is once again proven true, but not now with Prop 8 and not in MY state!
It is my opinion, and the opinion of many others here on this blog that being gay is a lifestyle choice, not a genetic issue. Dont agree? Tough, I am tired of those who think they can bully others into believing their opinion. Heck, being gay is a fashion statement now! It is "in" to give it a shot, test drive if you will. Teens are trying it out for the shock value! BY CHOICE!
I agree Amsaal, gays spout PR hogwash! Their "poor me" attitude is becoming a reason I would discriminate... I cannot stand whiney people! I got that from my mom! Minority? Equal rights? Please... Straight White Christians are fast becoming the Minority! "

seriously wrote on Nov 9, 2008 11:33 AM:

" Please Gay people, quit comparing your "plight" to that of black people. They stood up for themselves for equality and they could prove that A). They were of a different skin color and B). They were born that way! (And please, dont tell me to google your junk science).There is no comparison what so ever. Give that argument up!
A majority of Christians believe that gays are immoral in their behavior and gay marriage is an abomination. And I for one can tell you that I held that belief LONG before I became a Christian or read the Bible. Deep down in my core, I knew it was wrong... the Bible just strengthens my convictions. So, no, I do not justify my opinion with the teachings of Jesus... He justifies my opinion! So I am going to take my Bible and bask in the glory of the victory of Christians with the passing of Prop 8! "

liberalguy wrote on Nov 9, 2008 1:22 PM:

" I am amazed that people today in this state are so narrow minded that they think that being gay is a choice. It also amazes me that we are able to pass laws based on what the bible says. The founding fathers did not want things that way. They came here to get away from persecution, but I guess since GLBT are a minority it is ok to pick on them. Why don't we start having seperate drinking fountains, and schools, so that we straight people don't catch the gay germ. People say that they have civil unions and that those are the same. They are not they fall under the heading separate but equal. If things are separate they are not equal. The arguements being used against gay marriage are the same ones that were used in the south to segragate blacks from whites. I am disgusted by this vote, but am not surprised, and before you tell me to go somewhere else if I don't like it, Let me say I am going to stay here and fight so that all people have the same rights! "

liberalguy wrote on Nov 9, 2008 1:26 PM:

" I think that since all gays and lesbians are not considered equal in the eyes of the california constitution they should not have to pay taxes in california. "

pnotes wrote on Nov 9, 2008 1:40 PM:

" This issue boils down to two major points in my book.

1. Validation from society. They want everyone to say
okay this is just another lifestyle.

2. Money and benefits. The homosexuals want our
precious federal benefits. "

Deb wrote on Nov 9, 2008 2:41 PM:

" Liberalguy - there's a tongue n cheek blog over at thedailybeast.com just about your comment about taxes by Melissa Etheridge.

Pnotes: "they want our precious benefits..." What is with the "our", they too pay taxes, they too pay into social security, why shouldn't the partner be entitled to social security benefits after the death of their partner?

Give me a good reason why?



Oh, yea, there is none. "

Dandre wrote on Nov 9, 2008 2:49 PM:

" THE CONSTITUTIONAL RESULT:
YOU CANNOT LEGISLATE DISCRIMINATION.

The EQUAL PROTECTION CLAUSE of the CONSTITUTION overrides your ignorance, biology is a class that you 'bigots' either, didn't take, didn't pay attention, or are just tooo stupid to have gotten!
You are on the wrong side of history, missed that class too, I guess, but again, you are the present day 'witch-hunters' and 'grand dragons'.
In fact, now that the dust has settled, look around at the people that voted the way you did, if you see 'smiling faces', CONGRATULATIONS, if there are 'pointy hats' and swastikas, well, I don't know what to tell ya, also.... "

Melissa wrote on Nov 9, 2008 4:33 PM:

" B. Get real then that means, with your logic, that heterosexuality is a mental illness since they are the ones who, beat, murder and rape, and verbally abuse homosexuals. Hate crimes against homosexuals have gone up 6% recently. Do you want those who do those kind of things associated with you because you are straight and so are they? There are both heterosexuals and homosexuals in prison. Their mental illness or criminal history has nothing to do with their sexual orientation. You can not judge a human being by the actions of another, that is just common sense. Those who are out there egging churches or whatever else you claim is going on, are doing so out of frustration, do I think it is right? No, but you have no idea what it feels like to be second rate and some people no matter what their sexual orientation is do not take well to rejection. I do not think for one second that if the vote was the other way around there would not be violence against us. The hate crime numbers show it is already on the rise, without Prop 8 failing. hmmm some logic B. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 9, 2008 4:52 PM:

" Watchdog Fred, no where in my statement did it say anything about me wanting to take tax exempt status from churches, that was never an issue that is what I was telling ms ann. I see your back to twisting peoples opinions because you really have no reason for discriminating against LGBT except that you are narrowminded.

seriously, we are a minority and we can not help the way we are either, that is a fact, twist it however you have to make yourself feel better about voting yes. However you can stop with the "White Christian Minority" , that is simply not true. Obviously, you passed Prop 8 with 52%. Lets stick to fact here ok? You can do better at twisting can't you? As for literature, how about that literature put on my sisters windshield in plain view of my nephews? It was all about an "adult movie" star!! Your religious groups put that into circulation and put it on my sisters car for children to see in plain sight!!!!!This is not just YOUR state, I was born and raised here to and have just as much right as you to be here. PERIOD "

Melissa wrote on Nov 9, 2008 5:02 PM:

" Devils Advocate yes felons are a minority and thank god for that!!Would you like them to be more abundant? They have no relevance to the civil rights of law abiding, tax paying, functional citizens of sociey. As for the other minorities you have listed, their rights are not being violated. Our rights are not protected because we are a minority, they are protected because we are citizens just like yourself and in a free and equal country you should not have more legal rights than that of myself. Period. We do not make ourselves a minority, it just happens that way. We are born this way, we do not choose to one day wake up and be attracted to those of the same sex, did you wake up one day and decided to be attracted to the opposite sex?


A question to all of you who think it is a choice. Since you think we choose to be homosexual does that mean that you too had the choice to be attracted to same sex or opposite sex? If so what helped you decide your attraction? What age did you decide to be attracted to the opposite sex? "

Melissa wrote on Nov 9, 2008 5:05 PM:

" cont..Since we were all born with the choice of being homosexual or heterosexual I guess that still means we were created equal then right? When did you learn what attraction was?

For those of you who missed biology, attraction is chemistry in your body, in which you have NO CHOICE in. So with that information, answer all those questions for me...if you can. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 9, 2008 5:08 PM:

" One more clarification of attraction, from the merriam websters dictionary

"mean the relationship existing between things or persons that are naturally or involuntarily drawn together." "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 9, 2008 5:16 PM:

" To: Dandre wrote on Nov 9, 2008 4:49 PM:
Did you not get the Memo dandre' 75% of Kings County voted yes on 8. So you are saying 75% of the county of kings got it wrong and your lowly 25% got it right. I don't think so, have you been into that wacky tobacky again or what?

That is 3/4 that is 3 houses to ever 1 voted for yes on Proposition 8. Evidently you didn't get the message across to the neighbors near you.

3 our of 4 households in kings county got the vote all wrong according to dandre and his short friends list. Are we gonna be swayed by your insult to our intelligence no probably not, in eight more years when this might come up again because you won't let it lay, it will then probably be 4/5 in favor means four houses for every one dandre' then what?

You can't legislate opinion of and by the people. All your neighbors including Ali, myself, Blue Falcon and many, many more we don't even know voted as we did and against the way you did. Loser! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 9, 2008 5:26 PM:

" To: liberalguy wrote on Nov 9, 2008 3:22 PM:

Well do as you please but this fight as you call it stacks up about 75 to 25, not good odds even in Kings County for your minority there sparky!.

That means that for every 100 homes that purchase cable from comcast 75% didn't support their support of the GLBT stand on Proposition 8. So what do you think they would choose if they had to make a chice lose 25% of their business or 75% of their business, which would they choose. Give them a call and see what they say and get back to me. Separate schools works for me, at least I don't have to worry about my grandchildren being taught about homosexual lifestyle in public school then. So you take 25% of the tax base and we will keep 75% of the tax base and let's draw lines. It works for me, 25% isn't gonna get ya very far though when you consider all you have to do with it. Your own health clinic, your own hospital, your own schools, your own girl scouts/brownies & boy/cub scouts. "

Deb wrote on Nov 9, 2008 7:01 PM:

" All the yes on prop 8 did was guarantee that this issue WILL be in the history books. Do you really think your children/grandchildren are not or will not be aware of society and all that entails? I wonder how you intend to have children live in a bubble?

Certainly families who believe homosexuality is wrong will teach that along with that same "norm" being taught in church, but do not be so naive to think they won't know about it.

What they will most definitely learn is that there is a certain group of humans who have been unfairly discriminated against.

And those same children who find themselves to be gay will then have to deal with the guilt when they discover they are of the part of society their parents/grandparents despise. "

Devil's Advocate wrote on Nov 9, 2008 7:12 PM:

" Y'know, Melissa, I'm more than a little hesitant to give any type of right under the law based on sexual attraction. Talk about a slippery slope!
Understand, I've never said at any point that the traditional definition of marriage is in any way dependant on sexual attraction. In fact, its very possible (and far more common than you might think) that a husband and/or wife NOT be sexually-attracted to their spouse. In fact, I've even known people that have been married to someone of the opposite sex (completely consummated, as proven by children), that engage in homosexual sex outside of the marriage. It would be cruel to discuss some of the stereotypes, but many of us are cognizant of them. The homosexual attraction doesn't prevent enjoyable heterosexual behavior.
There are common instances of lack of sexual self-control in inmates where they engage in homosexual behavior while incarcerated (that's all that's available), but revert to hetero by choice on the outside. And there are plenty of examples of people (clergy, etc.) that choose to remain celibate, despite having the same hormones as the rest of us.
Attraction is just too fickle a basis for legislation. "

proudteach wrote on Nov 9, 2008 7:46 PM:

" Watchdog, you seem to be under the impression that suddenly Kings county now represents the ENTIRE state of CA. Agreed, 75% - 25% were the numbers for this county but the STATE stats were 52% - 48% and no amount of blogging will change those numbers. Why you feel the numbers for Kings county trump the state numbers boggles my mind. Nobody is arguing that we live in the conservative "Bible Belt" of CA in the SJ Valley, but the rest of the state clearly is much more equally split onthis issue. Obviously you can't handle that fact because you want to spout completely irrelevent stats like the results for one little rural county in a HUGE metropolitan state. If you can't handle the direction the rest of us are going maybe you should move to Alabama. It's beautiful, I would recommend it. Not only is it pretty but it is number 1 in the US for anti-gay attitudes. You would fit right in. "

chuck21 wrote on Nov 9, 2008 8:50 PM:

" I like how people compare civil rights issues to gay marriage. Being born black, white, brown is not a mental disease or a choice, so homosexuality and racial issues are not the same. No one is telling gays they can't marry, just saying you can't marry within your sex. I have rules within my free world I have to follow, I can't come on here and say profanities, is that a violation of my free speech? I can't marry more than one women, am I being discriminated against? Brothers and sisters can't legally marry, are their civil rights being violated? Ex-Felons can't vote, what about their civil rights? Even in a free world there are rules. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 9, 2008 9:22 PM:

" proudteach wrote on Nov 9, 2008 9:46 PM:

You claim to be a teacher, proud of your gayness and so content in an area of the valley who plainly doesn't see your cause to be a cause whatsoever. 75% of the voters in this quaint little vestibule seem to think it is you who does not fit the square peg into the round hole. So if there is moving to be done, I hear San Francisco has some pretty good rates on U-Hauls to the Bay Area.

You so vainly put out this proudteach moniker as if to be in people's faces with your choice. As for the people in Alabama, just wait until they come into this sorted little mix on your choices. Yes I said your choices not your rights. The only right you have is to be silent. Before someone makes a review of your teaching credentials and decides you aren't qualified to teach in your current school. Perhaps you should look for a job in higher education with a more intelligent and literate society if ours doesn't fit your needs? 75% of us would recommend it. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 9, 2008 9:31 PM:

" proudteach wrote on Nov 9, 2008 9:46 PM:

I honestly don't care about the rest of California. But a win my dear teacher is a win, "wether you like it or not", too bad and so sad. Isn't that what the kids say?
You weren't coming on here with commentaries of sorrow when those four justices violated the rights of 62% of Californians. The tides and waves of homosexuals crowding to the Justice of the Peace for a marriage license and to get married to their same sex partners. Which was hailed as such a Victory, and just as I forecasted then it was a short lived Victory. The true victory came once again by the popular vote of all Californians. I am especially proud of the Kings County supporters who came out in landslide numbers for the Proposition. Gee we aren't allowed a celebration when the tides are turned or what their Proud Teach?
I believe the proudTeach speaks from both sides of her mouth. She should have a right to celebrate, but those of us who are straight should quietly disappear into the night! "

seriously wrote on Nov 9, 2008 9:36 PM:

" melissa,
first, please do not twist my words. You obviously read what you want with your own twisted view and then try to turn it on others. Second, I did not say we are currently the minority, I said we are fast becoming so. Thankfully there are non-Christians who hold the same views and beliefs as Christians, which accounts for a big chunk of those yes votes. So do not think it is us "Bible Thumpers" who are out to get ya...
Finally, it does not matter how many times you ask us straight folk if we chose to be this way, the answer will always be the same and the question is simply another attempt to justify your own personal choices and behavior. That is why you never seem to get an answer, because the question is ridiculous.

Calling yourself a minority does not make you a minority. Twist it any way you want, it just ain't so! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 9, 2008 9:41 PM:

" Melissa wrote on Nov 9, 2008 6:52 PM:

I am not twisting anythng Melissa once again you have your facts wrong. I am quoting the Kings County facts and how the vote went the Hanford Sentinel and the Fresno Bee both stated the vote on Proposition 8 passed with a yes by 75% of the Kings County Residents. Do you not also live in Kings County in your liberal state of California. Do you not realize this is a local percentage not a state percentage.

You try and confuse the truth with your misguided quote locally when it was state wide. The state vote doesn't matter it was a win no matter what. I was taking pride in the fact that 75% of Kings County residents, of all backgrounds even minorities agreed with us that marriage should remain between a man and a woman. I was celebrating our victory just like you all celebrated those Justices illegally reversing our vote in 2000. What you are the only one's who can celebrate now too! Sheesh what's next we can't breath your air either! (Continued) "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 9, 2008 9:52 PM:

" Melissa wrote on Nov 9, 2008 6:52 PM:
(Continued)


I can't belive it you all jumped for joy when it went your way, what we can't jump a little? I thought "White Men Can't Jump" was just a movie, I didn't realize it was a batttlecry for the GLBT's.!


You want to talk about sore losers, just walk down the hallway enter your bathroom and look straight into that mirror.

You still don't' get that a win for us is the fact that we keep the sanctity for marriage. It is just too bad it happens to be a loss in your mind.

Just because a woman is a wanna be man, doesn't make her one, just because a fem woman wants to be with a wanna be woman posing as a man doesn't make it legal. But there are methods to grant you all the rights married couples have, all you have to do is resource them.

I am the messenger & now you want to shoot me for spreading the message. Yet you folks shouted from the roof tops! Right/Wrong? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 10, 2008 8:45 AM:

" To: Alihandro

Do you find it interesting that the four justices overturned the popular vote of 2000. That was the number (4) four, how ironic that the Proposition 8 passed by (4) four percentage points statewide. Some might consider that an omen of some type, would they not?

I have never in my born day seen so many sore losers about an issue that has been successfully defeated twice in eight years by the voting public. What part of marriage between a man and a woman is misunderstood here?

For all those minorities they compared theirselves to, none of them came out and supported them, not hispanics, not blacks, not philipinos, zero support from the oppressed that they claim to be in cync with in their crusade toward Satan. Another ironic fact of principles being distorted and counting chickens who hadn't voted yet.

Los Angeles region, it is felt the Aftrican American vote put the state vote over the top. Guess those gays in San Francisco were outnumbered in the south after all, how ironic.

Just pointing out some inconsistencies you won't be hearing from the other side. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Nov 10, 2008 9:27 AM:

" Talk aobut a bunch of little kids, the game didn't go their way so now they have to protest after the majority of Californians have spoken. How many of them would be supporting our rights to demonstrate if Prop 8 had failed? No they would be calling us names, such as bigots. But when the majority spoke they can't accept their fate and instead want to throw a temper tantrum like a little 2 year old. Face the facts, whether you believe it to be immoral or not, a majority of Americans and Californians, and dare I saw the whole world consider homosexuality as immoral. You all say that we are wrong for using the Bible, but then you all try to twist it around to suit your needs. Anytime any of us Pro 8 post facts you either ignore them or try to spin them. Like many have said there is nothing in the Constitution about marriage, nor is then any verbage about seperation of govenrment and church, only a statement by Thomas Jefferson to a preacher. continued "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Nov 10, 2008 9:28 AM:

" continued, as many have suggested, if you don't like the outcome then leave. Don't suggest it the other way around, as we won and are therefore more than happy to continue our life in the Glorious state of California where same sex marriage on this very date is illegal! "

Deb wrote on Nov 10, 2008 11:19 AM:

" Taking out all religious and personal belief of what marriage is, what's being denied to the LGBT community is a legal status.

There are rights and responsibilities that accompany the married status.

Without marriage as a government "right" then any couple (hetro or LGBT) could draft contracts that ensure "some" of the rights and responsibilities.

But, marriage is a recognized umbrella of those rights and responsibilities and is fundamentally simpler and a much less expensive way to ensure all these rights and responsibilities.

One could concede from the above description that it's similar to poll taxes - it imposes a hardship on one group in a sense and limits their freedom of access to something easily available to other groups.

Why exactly should the LGBT community have to go to extreme measure to partly ensure certain rights and responsibilities?

Explain, please, what is taken away from marriage when others are afforded the same umbrella of law? "

Aro wrote on Nov 10, 2008 11:24 AM:

" How ironic that so many people make light of the whole institution of marriage with divorce statistics, nd say things like 'it's just a peice of paper'. Apparently it's more than that.

I don't see what's the big deal with simply getting a civil union that could be made to emulate a marriage certificate for all the benefits it entails. Prop 8 regards not a civil question, but a question of culture. It is as if the homosexuals of CA don't really care about being married, per se. They care about what everyone else thinks of them. They want legitimacy.

Odd thing. Why do you guys care so much what the rest of us think? Why does this have to be crammed down our throats? Because you don't feel accepted enough? So then what? Get a court to make us accept gay marriage?

I think Californians are fair minded enough not to be homophobic as a whole. Maybe for the rest of us this isn't about you. It's about Marriage itself. "

proudteach wrote on Nov 10, 2008 2:41 PM:

" Watchdog, you must be enjoying retirement, something I look forward to as well, because you have nothing better to do all day but sit on your computer and blog. I sincerely hope I have more exciting things to do with my retirement years.
Regardless, for your information, ProudTeach has nothing to do with my sexual orientation or anything else, except the fact that I'm proud to be a member of one of the oldest and most important professions in our society, the teaching profession. The fact that you would think that my login name is a reference to anything else shows just how narrowminded you really are. By the way, no thanks to you I'm sure, the state of CA made it legal for openly gay people to be teachers in 1978, 40 years ago this year. Again, it is only a matter of time before we enjoy all of the same rights you enjoy now. So, spout all you want about statistics, dance in the streets if it makes you feel good, I wouldn't want to deprive you of that. Our day is coming and I know I will quitely celebrate then. "

Christina_Ambrosi wrote on Nov 10, 2008 2:58 PM:

" To Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 9, 2008 1:07 PM:
I understand about 'credibility'. But, with unions threatening to have a recall as we did with former Governor Gray Davis, it can buy him some much needed votes in order to keep that mansion in Sac.
As for the first lady of our state, she has gone on the record before the election stating that she was voting No on Prop 8. So why not go to the people that us CALIFORNIANS voted into office?
We hired them, we can get them fired, technically they work for us. Now I admit, I am fond of Govenor Schwartzenegger as an actor not as our govenor and I would vote him right out of there if he continues with his b***s*** plan to raise the state sales tax, but we have to voice our opinions. Otherwise, we will not be heard.
So, Watchdog Fred, if you feel differently, you are entitled to do so and not voice your opinion to those whom can bring about change. As for me, I have and I will continue to do so. "

proudteach wrote on Nov 10, 2008 3:22 PM:

" Let me correct a typo before watchdog chooses to interpret it as a lack of math skill and give him something else to blog about. That should have read 30 years to the year instead of 40. Sorry to disappoint you watchdog. I'm sure you were drooling at the mouth over that typo. "

Christina_Ambrosi wrote on Nov 10, 2008 3:29 PM:

" Ya know Watchdog Fred, have u ever heard of the DONT ASK/DONT TELL policy? Why should it matter to u if the military doesn't even see it as a problem? Hetero and homosexual people go off into war and fight for our great country. Then people like you do not allow them the simple right to marry? Answer this, do u enjoy ur many freedoms and rights? Thank a gay man or lesbian woman! Especially in the current war, homosexual men and women are in Iraq fighting and dying to protect our land from terrorists and this is how you would welcome them home? I was raised better than that, I was raised to take pride in my country. I guess some of us werent taught that valuable lesson. Some of us, like yourself, were taught that you were right and they are wrong. I would assume, a safe assumption, that 51% of Californians were taught that. I am so thankful that I am not in that number. I'm one of 48% of Californians that take pride in this country.
My heart goes out to u watchdog, hopefully one day you will be grateful. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 10, 2008 3:39 PM:

" proudteach wrote on Nov 10, 2008 4:41 PM:

I don't need your permission for anything I do proudteach. I do what I want when I want according to my schedule and my life, you can't change that either.
Furthermore, your cast of characters is down in Los Angeles in the suburbs where it is safe protesting Mormons who are more oppressed than you, where it is safe. Your group thinks it's wrong then put your butts down in Watts where a lot of the support for this vote came from. Go down there and see what kind of peaceful demonstrations you can get away with, they'd love to have you come on down. In fact I am willing to bet they are prepared and waiting for you, they can put you out of your misery.
All I can say is when the four justices overturned this decision you didn't see a bunch of us acting like several of you. We didn't try and block you from your place of worship. We didn't shout hate towards you, we just waited patiently for the outcome that was inevitable. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 10, 2008 3:45 PM:

" proudteach wrote on Nov 10, 2008 4:41 PM:
As for our governor he better start making preparatons to go back to Austria to run for office. Because after today he is finished in this country, he will never get the 89% religous white vote again.

As for Obama he is already doing away with offshore drilling, he is reversing decisions Bush made to help the oil crisis and is doomed to bring high gas prices back to the public with his inane practices. Mark my word gasoline will start an upward climb by the end of the month if not before.

He has convinced Russia he is a wuss so they are now backing out of a treaty regarding disarmament.

They didn't make that announcement until the end of the election, not surprising. McCain would have shoved that treaty down their throat with a cruise missile to back it up.

Don't come looking at the Veterans to bail you out of this mess, you voted it in, you can live with it.

Palin, I hope you got your eyes on Russia, so we get a first warning before the first strike. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 10, 2008 3:52 PM:

" To: Christina_Ambrosi wrote on Nov 10, 2008 5:29 PM:
Thank a gay man or lesbian woman! Especially in the current war, homosexual men and women are in Iraq fighting and dying to protect our land from terrorists and this is how you would welcome them home?

Christina, you don't know the first thing you are talking about. Do you know the self sacrifice laid out by minorities in WWII? Were you taught anything besides compassion in school? Black Servicemen came back to the same black and white restrooms and water fountains after risking their life and limb. Japanese-Americans came back to the land grabbing americans who stole their land and incarcerated their relatives in camps across the United States. You don't have an inkling of sacrifice, through most of the war the army was still segrigated.

Bill Clinton's don't ask don't tell policy is why so many gay/lesbians are fighting in the current war. No other reason, in previous wars they would have been removed from service.

Perhaps you might want to thank those of us who went to war in Vietnam. We sacrificed as well. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 10, 2008 4:04 PM:

" To: You need to thank a tall skinny white kid with a beard for most of the freedoms all minorities enjoy in this country, Did anyone mention Abraham Lincoln to you, how about Admiral Bull Halsey? What about Admiral Nimitz, Admiral John McCain, General Dwight D. Eisenhower, General Patton, General MacArthur, General Omar Bradley, John J. Pershing. You ought to wikipedia them if you don'f find their names familiar. These were all white heterosexual males who led this company through two of it's toughest and hardest fought wars in history. But I don't see you laying any credit to them the day before Veteran's Day.
How soon we forget and that is the problem the young people of today have been allowed to forget the importance of that list of names and there accomplishments. I lay that squarely on the Teachers in the United States who were suppose to teach our kids History instead of their own politics and beliefs. Children are naturally confused on patriotism when they think the true patriot is the draft dodging, draftcard burning coward in the street. There was a landslide of teachers created by Vietnam. "

Uncle Buck wrote on Nov 10, 2008 4:04 PM:

" It is outrageous to compare this issue to Rosa Parks. I have met FORMER gay or straight people. I have never met a former black. "

Christina_Ambrosi wrote on Nov 10, 2008 4:41 PM:

" To Watchdog: If u are in fact a vet, I thank u. If u are a vietnam vet, now i understand u! We are no longer in that era so catch up with the rest of us living in this time. Were there or were there not gay men in the service in ur time? There were. They were there fighting and dying with the rest of them and if they were outted, they were giving a dishonorable discharge. For what? Living life the way they saw fit? What is dishonorable about it? I appreciate ALL PERSONS whom have died or fought for this country. Just because I dont wikipedia the names does not make me any less of a citizen.
Oh and fyi, wikipedia is not entirely accurate. Just to quote my college professor.
Watchdog, just let it go. Narrowminded people won that one, so cant you just let people vent and spend time with the grandkids? "

Deb wrote on Nov 10, 2008 5:19 PM:

" WD - I know not one person in my life who is unpatriotic be they Obama or McCain supporters. You tend to lump everyone who voted together as idiots. Please stop.

I honor your time of service as I honor those in my family who served all wars and those who I don't know.

Teachers can teach, but patriotism isn't something taught, WD. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 10, 2008 5:54 PM:

" Uncle Buck wrote on Nov 10, 2008 6:04 PM:

My reference to Rosa Parks was directed at the author of this article. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 10, 2008 6:07 PM:

" To: Christina_Ambrosi wrote on Nov 10, 2008 6:41 PM:
You will find in years to come and is already evidenced war is gonna change everyone involved in it, if not now years ahead. War is hell, and as for your teachers/professors comment on wikipedia, most profs don't like it, it is a quick resource to information that often times contradicts their teaching and many times wikipedia is the correct source. Those names I listed for you were all real they were all Admiirals and Generals who served during the two WW's. If you had simply history in school you would have recognized most of their names and one went on to become President of the United States.
But you go ahead on an listen to your profs and never think for yourself, because that is the type of student they love to have in their classes. Yes, I did use my GI Bill and educational benefits, before you ask. I went to West Hills College when the courses were offered at Lemoore High School in the 1970's. You can verify that information too if you'd like. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 10, 2008 6:14 PM:

" To: Christina_Ambrosi wrote on Nov 10, 2008 6:41 PM:

"Narrowminded people won that one, so cant you just let people vent and spend time with the grandkids? "

Christina Openminded people won Proposition 8, can't you just let people vent and spend time with the kids/grandkids?

The comment fits both scenarios you know. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 10, 2008 7:25 PM:

" seriously...the fact that you even suggest that you are becoming a minority is ridiculous. As for my twisted way of thinking? Being open minded is twisted? hmmm interesting. As for my question you answered it for me, it is just as ridiculous as all of you saying it is a choice. That is my point, you did not choose to be straight and I did not choose to be gay. If you did not choose your sexual orientation then what makes you think I chose mine? Your right calling ourselves a minority does not make us one, the definition does

1 a: the period before attainment of majority b: the state of being a legal minor
2: the smaller in number of two groups constituting a whole ; specifically : a group having less than the number of votes necessary for control
3 a: a part of a population differing from others in some characteristics and often subjected to differential treatment b: a member of a minority group
Merriam Websters Dictionary

Watchdog Fred I know what the local numbers were, you were representing them as though those were the numbers that passed it. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 10, 2008 7:55 PM:

" WatchdogFred cont..

sore loser? our win of the courts, nor if Prop 8 had passed would not have effected your life one way or the other. My relationship and what we do has nothing to do with you or anyone else who voted YES. You all made it about you by spreading lies about the school system and your churches. Everyone of you knows full well that your children can not be taught anything in school about marriage or sex ed without a parental consent. Everyone of you know that right now churches can deny a marriage to a hetero couple for many reasons and not loose tax exempt status. Everyone of you know the laws and yet still promoted lies, voted YES and you call us immoral? No Fred I am not a sore loser, I am deeply saddened by a majority who took it upon themselves to take a right protected by the constitution re word it and exclude me and many other citizens of this state. You want to celebrate taking away rights from fellow citizens by all means go ahead, I just can not imagine celebrating lying, discriminating and hurting others around me. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 10, 2008 8:02 PM:

" Aro, I quote divorce statistics to show that it is not us who have made light of marriage, that has already been done. Yes we care about being married, isnt that what marriage is legitimizing love? Even if it is a cultural issue, are we still not equal enough to be considered part of this culture? Marriage has been around for many many years and it has been pointed out on here that many ancient countries have allowed homosexual marriage, as do many countries of this date. Marriage did not start here in California with heterosexual Christians. In this state I pay taxes, I live here, I am a citizen just like you and deserve to have the same rights and priviledges you do. If my money is good enough for California to take and spend, and I am good enough to work in our economy, shop in our stores, eat at our resteraunts, buy high priced gas, get a drivers license, I sure should be good enough for a marriage licesnce. "

Cammy wrote on Nov 10, 2008 8:45 PM:

" I cannot believe how close-minded you people really are! You actually think we have to move to be with others of our own kind? I'm sorry... we are not going NOWHERE!!! We ARE EVERYWHERE and we deserve the same respect as you. All we want is to have equal rights for EVERYONE!!!!! Denying EVERONE of that right IS AGAINST THE LAW PEOPLE!!! It's called discrimination. This is about civil rights, and you people have no idea on what it is like to have your rights taken away. I work and pay my taxes just as you all do. It sickens me to see my town, in which i was born and raised from, in such hatred and bigotry!!!! So now am i gonna

You know...i didn't ask to be a lesbian. I was never given the choice. And it is NOT A DISEASE!! I can say that i did try to live what they call a "normal life" and i was beyond miserable. I spent half my life living a lie so i could please my family. I went through total hell because i was denying my own happiness..I see something wrong with that! "

Cammy wrote on Nov 10, 2008 9:02 PM:

" Cont...
You know for all those people who keep trying to rub it in our faces, it just makes us that much stronger :)

We will succeed in overturning prop 8 because it goes against the constitution in the 14h and 3rd amendment and so my friends, that makes it discriminatiion to each its own.

From what i was reading in earlier posts, there was an individual(s) who keep saying that we should get over it...That we are being "sore losers." I have something to say to you...

If you are not worried by what we say, then why do you keep posting and arguing about this? I mean really... if it means nothing to you... then stop writing about it already. Unless you are really showing your age as being immature in rubbing it in our faces.... YOU need to get over it!!! We are gays and lebians that live in the same city, town, state, and nation as you... YOU GET OVER IT!!!! LIke i said, we just want quality for ALL people... NOT SOME!!!. "

liberalguy wrote on Nov 10, 2008 10:34 PM:

" Hey watchdog, just some food for thought, there are many credible historians who believe that honest Abe was gay. Now that may or may not be true, but if it were true would it make a difference how you thought about the great things that he did? Would you allow him to marry? The fact is there have been and forever will be gays in every part of society, that is a fact that needs to be dealt with. You claim they are shoving their lifestyle down your throat, but they aren't. They are wanting you to understand who they are and how they feel. One more thing for those who scream the loudest about how terrible and sick gays are, it is usually true that those who fight so hard against something are, trying to stop those same feelings in their own mind. It is called self-loathing, people like REPUBLICAN Larry Craig, and the Pastor whos name slips my mind at this moment who preached so hard against gays, when it turns out he was GAY, GAY, GAY! Maybe they diddn't get their vaccinations that year. "

SonoranSteve wrote on Nov 11, 2008 8:01 AM:

" Recently in San Diego, Los Angeles, Oakland, Salt Lake and other places, protesters have closed or inhibited the free flow of faithful Mormon’s from entering their Temples. What about these peoples’ civil rights? Where are our city leaders or even the Justice Department on this? Can you imagine if Muslims were kept out of their Mosques, or Jews were barred from entering their Synagogues, or Buddhists kept from entering their Temples? There would be justifiable outrage and meltdown. Why is it ok to pick on Mormons? What is going on here? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 11, 2008 9:00 AM:

" Deb wrote on Nov 10, 2008 7:19 PM:

Quite clearly you were never indoctrinated in a bootcamp setting or you would not have made the below pasted comment. Patriotism cannot only be taugh it can last a lifetime once it is learned. Veteran's for example were just given the right after all these years to move their hand from their heart to a full salute in civilian clothes. Bet you weren't even aware of it?

Teachers can teach, but patriotism isn't something taught, WD. " "

Deb wrote on Nov 11, 2008 10:51 AM:

" Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 10, 2008 6:04 PM:
I lay that squarely on the Teachers in the United States who were suppose to teach our kids History instead of their own politics and beliefs.

The above is what my response to you was about - and you go off about indoctrination - Stay on subject, WD.

Patriotism is a feeling obtained from many sources beginning right at home.

Are you WD getting patriotism and nationalism mixed up? "

sc281 wrote on Nov 11, 2008 1:24 PM:

" Maybe people should be fighting for a ban on DIVORCE, Since that IS the biggest threat to marriage.
Gay marriage doesnt hurt my marriage at all. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 11, 2008 2:16 PM:

" To: liberalguy wrote on Nov 11, 2008 12:34 AM:

I love the uninformed Abraham Lincoln was married did you miss that in History Class?
Are you sure that isn't liberalgayguy? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 11, 2008 2:27 PM:

" Cammy wrote on Nov 10, 2008 11:02 PM:
Your Wrong Again!
14th Amendment:
No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
Due process was the recent vote.

Cammy let me introduce you to the 3rd Amendment of the Constiution:
No Soldier shall, in time of peace be quartered in any house, without the consent of the Owner, nor in time of war, but in a manner to be prescribed by law.

I don't think this really applies to Proposition 8 Cammy, do you? "

equality wrote on Nov 11, 2008 4:07 PM:

" Hey Uncle Buck, as for your "former black" comment, what about Michael Jackson?

Anyways, if Prop 8 would not have passed, all who supported it would be protesting just as all who opposed it are doing now.

The fighting will never stop unless we all agree to get along and let everyone have the same rights.

If not, we might as well go back to having seperate drinking fountains, schools, etc. "

Aro wrote on Nov 11, 2008 6:23 PM:

" Obviously a lot of people are torn up about this proposition. Cammy's statement is a good example of how deeply the homosexual community is hurt by all this, and it makes sense. To deny her the ability to marry another woman seems like some kind cruel and unusual torture.

I don't understand why scientists are not touching on the experiments of John B. Calhoun. Given human intelligence, and given that psychology is such a soft science right now, it's certainly debatable whether or not social crowding is the main contributor to homosexuality in a culture, but I submit the following:

http://nihrecord.od.nih.gov/newsletters/2008/07_25_2008/story1.htm

Now in the multiple studies since these experiments were done, many scientists write this off as being unapplicable to humanity. I would say that in all the follow up, there is no question that social crowding is stressful, only in how different species deal with it.

I don't see how this being a big part of explanation for homosexuality would be unscientific, but it would be difficult to prove simply because experimenting on humans the way these rats were experimented on would be unethical. "

Aro wrote on Nov 11, 2008 6:43 PM:

" So then it coems to this. I cannot believe that homosexuality is genetic, and frankly if it were then it is a dead end mutation in the history of evolution. I find it FAR more likely that homosexuality is a psychological effect, since it has been in existence in every great society in human history. This is not to say that it's not real or something. It's obviously something that carries a strong motivation that may be avoided, but only at the cost of a great deal of Cognitive Dissonance.

So what do we do? Treat homosexuals like the people they are. People. does this mean we should back gay marriage? Nope. Don't see why a Civil Union conferring the same legal rights as a marriage should not be available. This would serve the legal needs of the gay community, and keep cultural values intact. The only thing it wouldn't do is give the gay community the legitimacy they see in being able to be called "married".

Maybe the thing yes voters should realize is that homosexuals really cannot seem to find a choice in the matter of their preference, and it is a very real proclivity. "

liberalguy wrote on Nov 11, 2008 9:17 PM:

" Watchdog: I am very sure it is not liberalgayguy, it it liberalguy who beleives in equal treatment for all, and I did not say Abe wasnt married I know he was married and yes I did have history, and unlike you I have learned from it. What I said was if Lincoln was gay like some believe he was would u have denied him the right to marry a man that he was in love with? If he was gay does that change the great man that he was. Fred I see you talk about the military and how you served this country and for that I Thank you very much. But when you were fighting for this country you were fighting for everyone who lives here not just those who you agree with. Also you probably served with at least one person who was gay. Don't they deserve the same respect and rights that you enjoy? On this Veterans day I honor all those who served, not just those who agree with my philosophy. "

Cammy wrote on Nov 11, 2008 10:03 PM:

" Watchdog Fred....
Dandre wrote on Nov 9, 2008 4:49 PM:

" THE CONSTITUTIONAL RESULT:
YOU CANNOT LEGISLATE DISCRIMINATION.

The EQUAL PROTECTION CLAUSE of the CONSTITUTION overrides your ignorance, biology is a class that you 'bigots' either, didn't take, didn't pay attention, or are just tooo stupid to have gotten!
You are on the wrong side of history, missed that class too, I guess, but again, you are the present day 'witch-hunters' and 'grand dragons'.
That has EVERYTHING to do with prop 8! I cannot believe how close-minded you really are. What if the shoes was on the other foot? What would you do? This is about from one HUMAN being to another HUMAN being. It's about treating others as you would want to be treated. So you mean to tell me that if the shoe was on the other foot, you would think it was ok for people to take away your rights? I think not! Prop 8 specifically states that it will ELIMINATE THE FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT to same sex marriage and that it relegates us and our relationships to second-class citizens. "

Cammy wrote on Nov 11, 2008 10:21 PM:

" Watchdog Fred....
Cont...
Domestic Partnerships are NOT the same as marriage. Domestic partnerships are only legal documents. They don't provide the same dignity, respect, and LEGAL PROTECTION AS A MARRIAGE. In a marriage, In a marriage, a paramedic doesn't tell you that you cannot get into the ambulance with your spouse unless you have a paper or a lawyer. Married couples can AUTOMATICALLY MAKE LIFE OR DEATH DECISIONS FOR EACH OTHER IN THESE CRISIS SITUATIONS, NO QUESTIONS ASKED!!!!!
I've been in a domestic partnership since 2006, and just recently i was in a situation that could have left me without my mate. What it all boils down to: I DO NOT HAVE A SAY SO IN WHAT IS TO HAPPENS TO HER!!! That is WRONG!!! So now you know that WE DO NOT HAVE THE SAME RIGHTS AS YOU!!!! AND THAT IS WHAT WE ARE FIGHTING FOR. LOVE HAS NO GENDER!!! WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS DISCRIMINATING OUR RIGHT TO LOVE JUST HOW YOU LOVE. Throwing your religious beliefs is wrong, because that goes against the 3rd AMENDMENT!!! GET YOUR FACTS RIGHT! "

Cammy wrote on Nov 11, 2008 10:48 PM:

" Aro..
Aro wrote on Nov 11, 2008 8:23 PM:

" Obviously a lot of people are torn up about this proposition. Cammy's statement is a good example of how deeply the homosexual community is hurt by all this, and it makes sense. To deny her the ability to marry another woman seems like some kind cruel and unusual torture.
Yes we are hurt by this. Wouldnt you be if you wern't giving the right to love who YOU want to love? People say they want to protect marriage. So then eliminate divorce.Too many people are using their religious views to back up their answer. The State IS separate from the CHURCH so why are people denying us of our rights? I will tell you why-There are too many people that are scared about us homos and will do anything they can to prevent us homos to have a normal life just like anyone else. Hell yeah it hurts! To be considered a second-class citizen in the town i was born and raised, To work, shop, and pay taxes and get called a second-class citizen is plain insulting! Its sad when farm animals have more rights than me! "

kimberley wrote on Nov 12, 2008 4:20 AM:

" To All that said we choose tobe gay . Let me tell you I tryed it your way for 16yrs and had three kids . I hated lieing to myself and my family that was not me i was dieing inside.I new at a young age that i liked girls. But i wanted to make my family happy and you know for what, To have my kids hurt by a man that you all say is a right with a man and a woman , I know not all men are like that . But who are you all to say who we should love and want to share are lifes with by getting married. I am with my life long partner and i want to marry her and us to have all the rights as every one, I want to know if i should get sick that she can be there and tell them what to do if she had to. and right now she does not have that right.we are all the same. You just love who you want to. we do not tell you who you can love.why should you get to tell us.. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 12, 2008 8:00 AM:

" To: liberalguy wrote on Nov 11, 2008 11:17 PM:

Yes I did serve with a couple of men who were known to be gay and as I said; eventually they were sent home and received bad conduct discharges. Yes I did fight for everyone, but the gay men who served with me for however long were not demanding rights that conflicted with my belief about marriage. Had they there would have been some very serious discussions aboard ship, I am sure.
There is nothing wrong with a civil union providing most if not all the rights that a marriage does without calling it a marriage. Why people can't see this, I will never understand.
Why must an infringement be made on those of us who believe marriage to be between a man and a woman to accomplish your goal. It is as if it is an intentional attack on that belief, and yet you scream we are prejudiced in some way.
If marriage is the disconneceted barage of divorce gays claim it is, then why do they yearn for it so desperately. This isn't a death penalty, we are talking about a choice. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 12, 2008 8:06 AM:

" To: liberalguy wrote on Nov 11, 2008 11:17 PM:

While you are both trying to discredit my service and my creditibility what branch of the service have you served in? That's what I thought, talk to the hand young pup!

All rights were spelled out in the United States Constitution. One of your supporters yesterday referenced the 3rd amendment as a protection of her right to be gay. The third amendment for those who don't know, is the right to quarter men and horses in time of war. What in the world does that have to do with Proposition 8? Pray Tell!

That is why you and the other supporters lost the Proposition 8 fight you are attempting to fight a war with a weapon which isn't even loaded. You don't present fact, but defer to enuendo and some Ahtiest handbook to try and disprove an age old custom in this country. What this issue is about is about tradition, sanctity and a God Blessed joining of one man and one woman together. It isn't about giving homosexuals the right to change our lives for their convenience. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 12, 2008 8:29 AM:

" To Liberalguy
If you support the gay nation, why did you get upset when I referred to you as liberalgayguy. That should have rolled off your back like water off a ducks back if you truly support them. "

jeff wrote on Nov 12, 2008 10:00 AM:

" Fred,

Just by saying "What this issue is about is about tradition, sanctity and a God Blessed joining of one man and one woman together."

You are admitting that you are wrong. You are admitting that you fight for this based on religious beliefs which play no part in how citizens of this country are governed. Using religious beliefs to create laws is something that is done in the Middle East. So again, why don't you move to Tehran? Iran is not only more in line with your religious beliefs but they chose to create laws based on scripture. This is how you want America to be ran which makes you very un-American. "

Aro wrote on Nov 12, 2008 10:53 AM:

" Cammy - I dunno if you read the rest of my post.

I don't know of any government regulation about who you can LOVE. The whole thing about "marriage" is really about what the state and the community will legally recognize. If love is the thing you're worried about, then you've got nothing to worry about.

I don't think that marriage is an inalienable right. If everyone has the right to "marry" anyone they want, why don't we let adults marry children? On what basis would we object to polygamy? We object to these now on a moral basis. Not on a Christian basis necessarily. We just feel that these situations do not serve the interest of our society, and don't want to condone it.

I can only imagine the problems you've had in dealing with your family, and with people in the community. I'd like to put myself in your shoes, but frankly I think that would belittle your situation. All I can say is that there's probably a lot of people like me that voted yes on Prop 8 that don't think any less of you; We just do not condone the gay marriage. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Nov 12, 2008 10:55 AM:

" To those speaking of the No Ask - No Tell in the military. You are right, there are courageous people in the military of every race, creed, religion and sexual orientation. The only difference is that a member of the military can still be charged under the Uniformed Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) for being gay. But if you don't broadcast it and don't get caught, you are allowed to remain in the service.
Was Abraham Lincoln gay? Don't know, even though I am old, not quite that old. Nobody that is for prop 8 has ever said there haven't been any great homosexual people in history. Would him being gay distract from his greatness? NO! But would that allow him to marry the one he loved? NO! "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Nov 12, 2008 10:58 AM:

" Some of your other rebuttals are just about as lame. What is wrong with getting a legal piece of paper to take care of someone you love? I had to for my parents, and I sure as heck couldn't marry them. So I too have been in a situation where I had to get legal documentation to take care of a loved one. What is wrong with trying to force change to the legal ramifications of a Civil Union, vice going against a institution of Marriage? Make it where a civil union gives the same rights as a marriage? You get what you want and I get what I want, marriage between a man and a woman. "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Nov 12, 2008 11:21 AM:

" Marriage is an institution not a civil right. Those of you who keep pointing out you are being descriminated against because you are gay and can't get married, but then in the same breath state that churches can marry who they want had better look back at history. That is exactly what brought on all of the civil rights. You were excluded from something, say the local club house, then you sued and got the right to join as members. Now you are telling me that you won't do the same to churches? Sue them because they won't let you hold your gay marriage there?
I will also state what does divorce have to do with the sanctity of marriage? It doesn't make marriage different than being between a man and a woman. Gay marriage has been around for a shorter period and there are already cases of requests for divorce, so that is a double whammy against the sanctity of marriage? "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Nov 12, 2008 11:29 AM:

" Marriage is not a constitutional right, but religion is. So it is all of those people that are for gay marriage that are guilty of discremanation, as you are not allowing me my constitutional right. I do not deny you your rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. You want to be gay, so be it, just don't discremanate against me.
Now for an odd thought, for all of those lesbian couples that want to have a child naturally, if you are married, isn't one of the party guilty of adultry if they allow themselves to be impregnated via natural or invertro means? Since the child isn't half of both "parents" doesn't that make the child a bas**rd child? Who will be placed as the parents on the birth certificate since it is impossible for two females to procreate?
Lastly children are taught about marriage via images, when I went to school we learned of Dick and Jane, the perfect, happily married couple. The image was of that, not of a gay couple, or sex outside of wedlock. So yes marriage was impressed upon young children. "

Tony wrote on Nov 12, 2008 1:01 PM:

" I have never seen so many people get upset when something doesn't go their way.....TWICE.
Moving to a different State could be an option for them. Gas prices are very attractive right now so let me be the first to offer a fluid top-off and a free 21 point safety check on their vehicle.
Another option is to call the 'Waaa-bulance'. "

BJMallory wrote on Nov 12, 2008 2:28 PM:

" OY. After reading this article and the plethora of comments, that's all I can say. That...and also this:

I'd like to know how being heterosexual automatically makes one "moral"? I know PLENTY of heteros that would sell their own mothers if the price were right, so PLEASE get off your high horse, B. It's not "immoral" to want equal rights under the law and quite frankly I'm a little tired of hearing how the Bible has anything to do with this. Hate won the day regarding Prop. 8 and all the people that feel vindicated and proud that it passed should remember that the Bible also says, "Pride goeth before destruction and a haughty spirit before a fall." "

Dandre wrote on Nov 12, 2008 3:42 PM:

" Get ready, folks.because, per the Constitution, the Supreme Court is gping to DO IT'S JOB and declare this law UN-CONSTITUTIONAL.
This is about government issuing a LICENSE. It cannot DISCRIMINATE in the issuing of that license.
All of your hyperbole and homophobic rants are not going to change the principle of this argument which has NOTHING to do with being gay.
The next time the anti-love crowd musters up another 'inititive', that 60/40 margin that turned into a 52/48 margin in a few years (even with all the lies) will keep right on 'evolving' into a permanent majority that in twenty years will ridicule the intolerance.
History proves it.....everytime.....Praise Jesus and God Bless MY Unites States of America and All of Her Freedoms......YOURS doesn't measure up "

MelMAOB wrote on Nov 12, 2008 3:51 PM:

" Chuck,

No where in the DSM, which is the diagnosing manuel for psychologist in a mental illness called homosexuality. There for it is incorrect for you to call it a mental illness. Research has not support the thought the homosexuals are ill.

I do not know if we were bornthis way or not, I knew when I was in first grade, denied for awhile, but came to terms with who I am. I have not involved myself in the after election marches and stand offs. Not becuase I don't think it is right, but because this election was much closer than the first which means we are making progress. Give it time. We will be allowed to be married. I will march when it is time for me march. I amnot a sore loser, I am a strategic winner...and I have won. I am an American and I stand behind the fundamental truth that every person is created equal. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 12, 2008 3:59 PM:

" kimberley wrote on Nov 12, 2008 6:20 AM:

As for your choice to have your lifelong partner decide your medical situation. Simply have her appointed as your Patient Advocate and also both of you should fill out advance directives and list who is calling the shots for each of you.
This is available at any Hospital, just ask for the forms and fill them out, even married couples must do the same thing, if they want to make specifics about their care and what to do and what not to do.
So I think you will find a little research and questions asked of the medical field will supply you what you want when you want it, it just has to be done in advance of a serious illness. That's the same married or not. "

seriously wrote on Nov 12, 2008 4:09 PM:

" Egging churches, blocking and protesting parishoners from entering their churches, gay pledge cards, and now trampeling an elderly woman and destroying her property while she was peacefully showing her support for the sanctity of traditional marriage.... what do all of those things have in common? They were all acts committed by gays. Respect for your cause is what you want, but with actions like that, you will never get it. Circular logic here on the sentinel blog runs rampant with the no on prop 8 people.
Misinterpretation of the constitution and twisting to fit your definition of the civil rights act and equal rights clause sure does not lend you any supporters. Attacking, yelling, and giving ridiculous examples to justify your lifestyle is getting you no where.
You all come on here and demand that we accept and support your cause. You have no regard for our opinion. You want us to respect your opinion and attack us for having our own because YOU do not agree. All of your lunatic rantings have me more convinced that I cannot and will not accept the lifestyle choices of the bipolar manic deviants. Your words have made that choice easy! "

Evil Spotter wrote on Nov 12, 2008 4:12 PM:

" On Nov. 8 Melissa said "we are born this way." I could be mistaken, but from her comments on earlier articles I thought she had kids from a previous relationship to a man? If she does, it would seem she chose a new lifestyle, not that she was born that way. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 12, 2008 4:13 PM:

" Melissa wrote on Nov 8, 2008 1:48 AM:

Your reported tax free complaint demonstrates to me that there is more behind your argument than just freedoms. All of you who attack the sanctity of marriage and the sanctity of a church astound me and sicken me. Any Pastor of any Church has a duty to meet with it's members and discuss and counsel them on marriage. Any Pastor/Priest who feels a relationship is doomed and not right, has the right and a duty, to refuse to marry them. This is the way it is done, if you spent more time in the pews and less time on the streets carrying signs you would have known this information. You profess to have attended a church when you were younger, did you just go once and then leave?

Furthermore, a Church and it's members live by a covenant and if Homosexual behavior, is against that covenant then the Pastor would be doing a disservice to all his members to perform such a ceremony. A Pastor is prescribed to follow the wishes of the Church or be replaced.

Deamons work in mysterious ways. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 12, 2008 4:23 PM:

" Melissa wrote on Nov 8, 2008 1:48 AM:

One of the biggest satisfiers for me out of this entire mess of Vote No on 8 is the money Brad Pitt and Ellen Degenerate poured into this thing accomplished nothing. I will never watch her show, and will not pay to see another Brad Pitt movie as long as I breathe.
They spent $100,000.00 each, yet what do they donate toward cancer, ms, downs syndrome and any other legitimate charity out there? Brad and his livein girlfriend bought a baby over in Africa, but other than that I haven't seen a profile on their charities, have any of you?
As for Arnold backing this, if his career in politics wasn't over, he just ended it. He continues to drive a gas guzzling Hummer up and down the state and professes to be aware of the planet needing to be more green. He travels most often alone wasting how much fuel and putting what combustible carbons into the air. He wants stricter pollution standards on cars but wastes fuel like it were water. His attitude was totally different before Jerry Brown came back. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 12, 2008 4:25 PM:

" BJMallory wrote on Nov 12, 2008 4:28 PM:

The bible also says something to the effect: Turn your back on me now and fail to recognize me and I will turn my back on you in front of my father and fail to recognize you.

Did you skip over that part there BJ (how appropriate). "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 12, 2008 4:49 PM:

" As I read and understand the articles of our United States Constitution it seems to me the founding fathers covered everything including this issue. Please read Article 10 of the Bill of Rights the Tenth Amendment to the United States Constitution which is one and the same:

Amendment X

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

By referring this to the people, I must submit that they are talking of a majority vote, therefore the majority shall decide the issue.

This is the missing little tid-bit that many gays said; "did not exist". But here it is in black and white for everyone to see. The majority in this situation has twice ruled by popular and majority of the vote of the entire state. Is that not what you read also?

Therefore Propsition 8, was legal, warranted and shall be granted. Under the terms and conditions of Article 10 of the Constitution of the United States.

The Justices for California were in violation of Article X. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 12, 2008 6:03 PM:

" Watchdog it is you who is wrong, here is a link to the articles of the bill of rights

http://www.constitution.org/billofr_.htm

Article the third [Amendment I]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

What you are talking about Fred is article five AMENDMENT 3

Now the 14th amendment has a clause in it called the Equality Clause...look it up it says all men were created equal and this country is to uphold that...do your homework Cammy and I did. "

liberalguy wrote on Nov 12, 2008 6:53 PM:

" Fred, Fred, Fred,

I did not get upset, at your comment, all that I said is I was sure it wasnt liberalgayguy. If that is angry in your eyes you must think the whole world is angry. Although I think you made the comment hoping to get an angry response out of me, but its just not going to happen. I am not going to give you a response that you can use against people like me who support the Gay community and their rights. And support their fight against the BIGOTS in this state. "

MelMAOB wrote on Nov 12, 2008 7:01 PM:

" Actually Angie,

Homosexuals are a minority and research has shown that homosexuals are suffering from minority stress. I am not up todate on my numbers, but I believe homos are 10% of the population and growing.We compare our civil rights movement to the black movement and the womens movement becausein the 60's the three of us marched together. I admit some choose to be gay. I did not make that choice and when you look at it...who in the world would choose to live through the discrimination, the hate crimes, the looks, the commentsthe sadness, the fear are brave people. However, my partner and I did not choose and we live as homosexuals everyday. You live in our shoes then tell us we don't deserve anything. "

liberalguy wrote on Nov 12, 2008 7:06 PM:

" Fred, Fred, Fred,

I in no way was trying to discredit your service, but because you did serve does not make you more of a patriot than someone who didn't. It doesnt mean you love your country more than me. I love this country with all of my heart, and that is why I want it to be the best it can be and allow everyone to have the same freedoms. If someone is a law-abiding citizen they should all be equal and have the same rights. And if I did serve you would try to pick my service apart, just like the Republican have done with John Kerry and and Max Cleland, the latter who was compared to Osama Bin Laden and Saddam Hussein by a man who never served and recieved 5 defferments during Vietnam, so dont say that I am trying to discredit your service, when you voted twice for two men you did everything they could to get out of Vietnam, while your party slander two men who fought for their country and in the case of Mr. Cleland left 3 limbs on the battlefield. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 13, 2008 2:02 AM:

" Tony let me be the first to tell you that you are not running me out of my home! We have as much right to be here as you, we have the right to protest just like everyone else, we have the right to free speach just like you, the only thing we do not have is the right to marry thanks to you. Guess what we also have the right to fight for that right. This is America what you can do, I can do. If I want to protest for the violation of my rights as a tax paying, legal consenting adult guess what I can, guess what I will. You want to move out of this state because we are here do not let me stop you, there are many states in the south who welcome your point of view, maybe you would fit in better there? "

Melissa wrote on Nov 13, 2008 2:16 AM:

" NotHomeGrown, first of all, no invitro does not acount infidelity, that is a far stretch. Just by implying that you are not only insulting lesbians, but insulting those many heterosexual couples who can not get pregnant naturally. The children you raise do not have to be half of both parents, if that were the case, adoption would be wrong too right? You have the right to worship whom and how you please, you are right THAT is your constitutional right, but only that you can worship whom and how you please. The freedom of religion does not cover you to impose your religious beliefs on others of this country that have the same right to worship whom and how or even IF they please. I think you need to look a little closer at that right my friend no where does it say you can use that right against others. You also really need to look up the definition of discrimination, nowhere in that definition does it apply to you. You are denying me my right to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness, what will make me happy is marrying my partner. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 13, 2008 2:24 AM:

" NotHomeGrown cont...I want the liberty to decide to marry the love of my life just as you had the liberty to decide you wanted to marry you wife. You are imposing on my life by telling me the parameters in which I can live my life. There is a difference between suing for the ability to go into a public club and going into a private church. In case you did not notice the only churches we go into are the ones who accept us for who we are. We are certainly not going to go to a catholic or christian church and ask them to marry us. Get real, just in saying that shows how far you are willing to stretch the truth to make a point. Now I understand having to get legal documents to take care of your parents, as I am in the same predicament, but what does that have to do with your life mate, your spouse? You do not have to do all that why should I? "

Melissa wrote on Nov 13, 2008 2:41 AM:

" NotHomeGrown cont.. As for using divorce to dispute sanctity of marriage here is the definition from the Merriam Websters Dictionary

Sanctity

1: holiness of life and character : godliness
2 a: the quality or state of being holy or sacred : inviolability bplural : sacred objects, obligations, or rights

Now correct me if I am wrong but isnt it against God to commit adultry? Isnt it against God to divorce? In fact I know that adultry is against one of the 10 commandments So I guess that proves that even Christians have violated the sanctity of marriage since I myself know a few who have divorced and commited adultry. So before you go preaching about the sanctity of marriage being between a man and a woman, and how you are protecting marriage, maybe you should look at the REAL threats to marriage and outlaw them, not take away the civil rights of fellow citizens who just want the opportunity to have the same rights as you to have the respect, dignity and legal protection of marriage. Sanctity is also a religious term, so it does not apply to civil matters. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 13, 2008 2:45 AM:

" NotHomeGrown cont.. Now as for birth certificates, there are many hospitals who now allow for two mothers or two fathers to be put on the birth certificate, so no that term does not apply to our children. Lastly I guess it has been awhile since you have seen a school text book, but Dick and Jane are totally out of the picture. That went out when single parents became common.There are many types of families out there now, the nuclear family is just one of them. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 13, 2008 2:53 AM:

" Aro in the same breathe we can say we do not condone teaching children to be intolerant and judgemental of others in their community but we are not trying to cross your lines of privacy to tell you what is acceptable in your home.If I marry my partner, or if Cammy marries hers it would not affect your life one bit, however your yes vote deeply impacted ours. Your life would not be affected with a yes or no vote at all, you children would still be taught the same way in school, and before they were taught anything about marriage or sex ed they would have to have your consent, your church would still function the same way it always had. Just so you know the only way your church can loose its tax exempt status is if it activly participates in politics. How would you feel if Cammy or myself voted to take away something from you that would not affect us one way or the other? We just did not want you to have it? "

Melissa wrote on Nov 13, 2008 3:00 AM:

" Watchdog do your homework, we looked up the bill of rights, I did so for a homework assignment plus I wanted to know exactly what rights of mine you were violating. I sent a link to the sentinel look it up yourself, Again I will ask you what in the world does me marrying my partner have to do with you, It is not going to change a thing about your life, your marriage will still be the same, your day to day life will still be the same, however for me it will mean the world to me to know that no matter what happens to me she is legally protected without us having to spend our entire life saving on a lawyer. To know she will have no contestment from my family over our children, all these things you take for granted, all these things you think you are entitled to but I am not because you are heterosexual and I am homosexual, because you took it upon yourself to take my right to equality away, read the bill Fred do your homework. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 13, 2008 4:34 PM:

" To: Melissa once again you are moving your jaws and talking but not providing any substance to your argument. Where and what bill of rights pertain to homosexuals specifically. I've found none. But you might want to review the 10th article of the bill of rights and realize the vote was legal and a justified manner in which to resolve this matter once and for all, sore loser.

If you can't provide evidence and substance even in a court of law you lose it is called evidence. "

seriously wrote on Nov 13, 2008 4:41 PM:

" Egging churches, blocking and protesting parishioners from entering their churches, gay pledge cards, and now trampeling an elderly woman and destroying her property while she was peacefully showing her support for the sanctity of traditional marriage.... what do all of those things have in common? They were all acts committed by gays. Respect for your cause is what you want, but with actions like that, you will never get it. Circular logic here on the sentinel blog runs rampant with the no on prop 8 people.
Misinterpretation of the constitution and twisting to fit your definition of the civil rights act and equal rights clause sure does not lend you any supporters. Attacking, yelling, and giving ridiculous examples to justify your lifestyle is getting you no where.
You all come on here and demand that we accept and support your cause. You have no regard for our opinion. You want us to respect your opinion and attack us for having our own because YOU do not agree. All of your lunatic rantings have me more convinced that I cannot and will not accept the lifestyle choices of the bipolar manic deviants. Your words have made that choice easy! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 13, 2008 6:54 PM:

" To: Melissa wrote on Nov 13, 2008 5:00 AM:
I have done the homework, but for some reason it isn't making it past the moderators, so here once again is Article X of the Bill of Rights:
Article the twelfth [Amendment X]

The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.

Those last four words Melissa is your due justice, it was put before the people for a vote to make it an amendment the people voted to do so, end of story. Cry in your beer you have lost and this time it will stick.

You guys can't keep coming up with salacious remarks and lawsuits by throwing everything you got on the wall and waiting to see what sticks. What is done is done this time, because it has been made a consitutional amendment, passed by the majority of Californians in a fair election.

You are attacking Mormons, the tax exempt status of churches all to a sad conclusion when you find that you are comparing apples to oranges. "

jeff wrote on Nov 14, 2008 9:03 AM:

" Fred,

Where does the Bill of Rights give rights specifically to heterosexuals?

"States respectively, or to the people"

This means that a state's supreme court can rule if something "The People" want to do is unconstitutional or not. Move to Iran already. "

Cammy wrote on Nov 14, 2008 11:18 AM:

" To everyone who is close-minded and can't seem to grasp the concept of what this is REALLY ABOUT,
If the people who voted yes to prop 8 would be smart, and thats a BIG if, they would stop living in the 1800's and stop using their religious beliefs to support prop 8. I thought christians were supposed to love ALL people, not SOME? Yet that is exactly what you and everyone else is doing. Please stop throwing your religious beliefs in our face. Did you forget that their is more than one religion? You need to think before you say because all you are doing is making yourself look bad. You obviously have no clue what love is love, is truely about. Do you not understand that the people who support prop 8 are discriminating our civil rights? You did so by eliminating our fundalmental right to marry same-sex. " I do hope one day you will finally see past that judgmental mind of yours and stop living in the past when everything WAS outlawed. Times have changed...GET OVER IT already! "

Cammy wrote on Nov 14, 2008 11:21 AM:

" cont..
The 14th Amendment is a "Equal Protection Clause" Defines a set of guarantees for United States citizenship; prohibits states from abridging citizens' privileges or immunities and rights to due process and the equal protection of the law. It is about how ALL men are created EQUAL. In which you all opposed to it so therefore you are violating my right and thats discriminating.The 1st Amendment is about "Freedom of Religion"- addresses the rights of freedom of religion (prohibiting Congressional establishment of a religion over another religion through Law and protecting the right to free exercise of religion), freedom of speech, freedom of the press, freedom of assembly, and freedom of petition, This means you CANNOT use your RELIGION on me and others to take away our civil rights. Since you are doing so, you are also violating yet another right of mine which makes you discriminating. What you are doing and saying is wrong! Do your homework! The men and women who choose to live together but not marry, at least they have a option TO MARRY AS WHERE US GAYS DO NOT! "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Nov 14, 2008 1:11 PM:

" To Melissa, our forefathers had it right "all men are created equal", so I guess that leaves you out, since you are a female. Show me the definition around that one. If our forefathers wanted everyone equal then they would not have created the electoral college, and they would have used the term "persons" instead of "men".
Some of the posters here are correct, you have a right to freedom of speech, but you are not entitled to violently protest and deny someone their lawful right to go to their place of worship. I am not accussing you of these things, but unfortunately you are guilty by association of those bad apples in your group just I am guilty of association of all those people (both homosexual and heterosexual) who commit adultery. And you are wrong there are passages in the Bible that allow divorce. The invetro thing was just a thought, because if you are not having your spouses child didn't you then have to commit adultery. Adoption is a means to caring for children and doesn't make them a Ba***rd. But adultery does. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 14, 2008 1:12 PM:

" Evil Spotter, You have me confused with another Melissa, I do not have any children. Did I try to be straight? Yes. Could I be something I am not? No. However you have me mistaken with someone else, I am not the Melissa that was in the article of the Hanford Sentinel, however even though she does have a child does not mean she was heterosexual. We are born the way we are, and yes many of us try to live as heterosexuals for many reasons, but it all comes down to one thing, we have to be true to who we are. One can not be happy while denying their self. You can not live for others.

Watchdog Fred, I see you throw out insults with out merit, I went to church lol I went alot, My parents and both uncles went to bible college where they trained to missionaries. One uncle starts churches here in California while the other is in Brazil as we speak training a new group of missionaries. My grandmother and mother took me to church every sunday morn and night as well as weds night, I went to bible camp. "

jeff wrote on Nov 14, 2008 1:42 PM:

" NHG,

You said;

"To Melissa, our forefathers had it right "all men are created equal", so I guess that leaves you out, since you are a female."

Should we take this to mean that you are in support of gay marriage when it only involves men?

Are you morphing from a homophobe to a sexist or did you just come to terms with yourself?

Of course your agrgument lacks common sense much like your previous ones. It was widely accepted for hundreds of years that the word "Men or Man" equated 'Human Beings" which women most certainly are. "

jeff wrote on Nov 14, 2008 1:43 PM:

" NHG,

You said;

"To Melissa, our forefathers had it right "all men are created equal", so I guess that leaves you out, since you are a female."

Should we take this to mean that you are in support of gay marriage when it only involves men?

Are you morphing from a homophobe to a sexist or did you just come to terms with yourself?

Of course your argument lacks common sense much like your previous ones. It was widely accepted for hundreds of years that the word "Men or Man" equated 'Human Beings" which women most certainly are. "

Cammy wrote on Nov 14, 2008 1:54 PM:

" To NotHomeGrown,
NotHomeGrown wrote on Nov 14, 2008 3:11 PM:

" To Melissa, our forefathers had it right "all men are created equal", so I guess that leaves you out, since you are a female. Show me the definition around that one. If our forefathers wanted everyone equal then they would not have created the electoral college, and they would have used the term "persons" instead of "men".
Well, well, well.. You just proved that you ARE discriminating against NOT ONLY us gays and lesbians, but to all the hetersexuals that ARE female. Again, think before you say something that tacky. It only makes you look worse on yourself than yo already have. It seems to me that you are running out of things to say and you are grasping for every little thing you can muster to try to throw in our face. Now is that christian like? I think not. Grow up already and show some maturity. You are not impressing anyone not by far. cont. "

Cammy wrote on Nov 14, 2008 2:09 PM:

" To NotHomeGrown,
NotHomeGrown wrote on Nov 14, 2008 3:11 PM:

All i keep hearing from you is blah blah about us gays and lesbians. You make us out to be some terrible people. We are not. We are just like everyone else. We love unconditionally just as you. But if you want to get dirty here, lets go there shall we.
Again christians are SUPPOSED TO LOVE ALL, NOT SOME. Yet you just proved the opposite of what your preaching. So if we are so bad and people claim that us gays are going to hell, then what about these Priets that got caught with child pornograhy? And what about the Priets that molested kids? Is that christian like? It disgusts me to think that these people who claim we are going to hell, well guess what.. I will be seeing each and every one of you there too. How dare you throw things into our face when it's all over the news about certain priets who did something totally WRONG!! You have no say so in judging me. DON'T judge me unless YOU want to be judged yourself. I would suggest taking a course in not discriminating. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 14, 2008 5:29 PM:

" To: Cammy wrote on Nov 14, 2008 4:09 PM:

I no comprehension is a weakness of yours, so I will try and make this simple: It is hard to take anyone serious who speaks about Priests and refers to them as Priets. I'd suggest if you don't want to come off looking like you just woke up and got out of bed to blog, you might want to spell check.

Further, you are absolutely right those Priests who are guilty of crimes, especially against children have paid and will pay dearly come judgement day, don't worry about that one.

Secondly, I wanted to retire from the Navy after 30 years but I made a choice to get out after four, does that mean if I cry and scream loud enough they will now pay me a retirement? Does that mean if I stomp and hold signs up in front of the Mormon Church, (the minority church of California with fewest members) that I will get my way and they will give me my choice back? I don't hardly think that would work and I don't hardly think it will for you. Continued "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 14, 2008 5:36 PM:

" To: Cammy wrote on Nov 14, 2008 4:09 PM:

Continued - the actions being taken to block entrance to city hall in Fresno and the blockages of Mormons from attending Church in Southern California is not going to bode well for your case. In face all it does those little temper tantrums is convince us that voting yes on 8 was the right move and is bringing us a landslide of votes from those who voted no last time. The more disrespect you show for others, will only cause us to disrespect you even more. So continue making noise, because this one is binding my dear, and the Justices aren't gonna touch it without direction from the United States Supreme Court and they are going to refuse to hear a state issue. This in no way effects other states in the union thereby they will not allow it to be heard.
Waste your money, contributions and ignare just causes of illness and disaster for your pompous choices in life. It makes you all look bigoted and dogmatic in terms of your fellow man. Thereby lessoning your chances of gaining additional support. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 14, 2008 7:48 PM:

" NHG I see you put your foot in your mouth LOL Thanks Cammy and Jeff for pointing out a major error in that comment. Guess what women got their rights a long time ago, we are included in that statement, no other definition needed. As for invitro, where do you even get that is adultry? Commiting adultry is having sexual relations with someone other than who you are commited to, tell me how invitro is anything close to that, I am curious I want to know, as for Divorce my friend there is only one reason the bible states for divorce and that is adultry. There is no irreconcilable differences in the bible. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 15, 2008 6:34 PM:

" To: Melissa,
Watchdog Fred, I see you throw out insults with out merit, I went to church lol I went alot, My parents and both uncles went to bible college where they trained to missionaries. One uncle starts churches here in California while the other is in Brazil as we speak training a new group of missionaries. My grandmother and mother took me to church every sunday morn and night as well as weds night, I went to bible camp. "

This is my point you went but gained absolutely nothing from it. That tells me you don't strive to achieve and learn subjects brought before you. That also tells me your experience with worship was forced upon you and that never works for children. If you don't attend church of your own free will and because you believe that is the right thing to do then you will grow to dislike it. That is only natural, once again we are back to the rule of common sense.
You can lead a horse to water but if they turn out to be a camel the trip may have been wasted. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 15, 2008 9:12 PM:

" Watchdog Fred I do not know where you get your information, I do strive and achieve quite well. In college I have been a 4.0 student and on the deans list every semester. Was religion forced upon me yes, but that was not my choice therefore it says nothing about me. I went until I was 24 years old when I could no longer participate in something I did not believe in. I believe in God, however I do not believe in organized religion. There are so many different religions interpreting the bible in their own way it makes it very hard to take any of it seriously. My mind is independent, I do not need someone to tell me what to think, and how to live. I do just fine, I am a upstanding citizen and a wonderful person all together. I did not need organized religion to tell me how to do that. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 15, 2008 9:36 PM:

" Melissa wrote on Nov 12, 2008 8:03 PM:
By your own admission you are not a man, so how can you consider yourself created equal? Also at the same time all of those slave owners signed that into law they were exactly that slave owners. So how can men in good conscience who say all men are created equal own black men as slaves. Isn't that a case of ideolegy gone wrong?
Somehow I think your logic is flawed to the extent you are assuming the forefathers were talking about you in 1776 and you weren't even a gleam in your father's eye yet. They did not say all men and women are created equal. But nice try. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 16, 2008 8:31 AM:

" Melissa wrote on Nov 15, 2008 11:12 PM:

(Continued) They sacrifice for a short time to have their goal in life. A Clergyman sacrifices all his/her life to give to the community and to provide a service to God. Now you tell me who deserves to be listened to, and he has proven their commitment?
But I agree with part of your assessment, we donot have to be in a Church to have God listen. In the Bible it states whereever three or more shall gather. It doesn't say whereever three or more shall gather in the house of the Lord. You resent what I am thankful you did have a 24 year foundation to accept or deny God. You may not have accepted the Church concept but at least you claim to believe in God. So those 24 years were not wasted then, were they?
You say I put people down yet you put entire congregations containing many more members than the bloggers on this network for their beliefs. So tell me once again who is the bigot among us, Melissa? (Continued) "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 16, 2008 8:37 AM:

" Melissa wrote on Nov 15, 2008 11:12 PM:

(Continued) You and all your friends like to refer to us who do believe in God as sheep. Well all I can say as Jesus as my Savior if he is the Sheep Herder then I will gladly become part of his flock. I will claim him now so that he will acknowledge me before his father our God in Heaven.
I will put no earthly man who was just elected President elect before him either. So you Obama supporters figure out by looking in the mirror by listening to your own words, who the sheep truly are being led to slaughter? As for me I will take my love of country and love of God everytime. Because in the end, I will believe as I believe now God is greatest and you people hate us. So as in the Bible I will forgive my trespassers as they will forgive me. Thou Shalt Not Want, are you really willing to gamble on that verse? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 16, 2008 10:00 AM:

" To: Melissa,

If it took you 24 years to realize religion wasn't for you, how long did you struggle with the lesbian thing? Just curious. Most Lesbians claim they knew at a much, much younger age.

"Was religion forced upon me yes, but that was not my choice therefore it says nothing about me. I went until I was 24 years old when I could no longer participate in something I did not believe in." "

Fence sitter wrote on Nov 16, 2008 11:33 AM:

" Gay or straight. I'm concerned about our Nation's teachers who are pushing any lifestyle on our children. Homosexual or hetrosexual. Has anyone held these educators accountable? What "relationships" have developed after these kids become adults? When was the seed planted? Could our schools be potential preying grounds? "

Cammy wrote on Nov 16, 2008 1:31 PM:

" WatchDog,
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 14, 2008 7:29 PM:

" To: Cammy wrote on Nov 14, 2008 4:09 PM:

I no comprehension is a weakness of yours, so I will try and make this simple: It is hard to take anyone serious who speaks about Priests and refers to them as Priets. I'd suggest if you don't want to come off looking like you just woke up and got out of bed to blog, you might want to spell check.

I must say that i am guilty of mis-spelling a word. However, with lack of sleep from being at work at odd times of the day i didn't catch my mis-spelling. Thank you for correcting me, however your insult makes you just as guilty. The next time you go and insult somone in a hateful manner, i would make sure you take your own advise.YOU ALSO mis-spelled a word. I do believe the correct way of saying, "NO" in your sentence is "KNOW." So maybe you need to think twice before saying my comprehension is a weakeness because surely it is YOURS TOO. Now try to explain yourself out of that one Mr. Fred. "

Cammy wrote on Nov 16, 2008 1:44 PM:

" WatchDog,
You wrote to Melissa:
Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 16, 2008 12:00 PM:
" To: Melissa,
If it took you 24 years to realize religion wasn't for you, how long did you struggle with the lesbian thing? Just curious. Most Lesbians claim they knew at a much, much younger age.

I can answer that one for you. We were to scared TO COME OUT of the closet because of people like you who speak in hatred to us. We chose to be gay or lesbian the same day YOU chose to be straight. Some of us didn't care and came out, while others were scared for their lives. Need i remind you of Mathrew Shepard? He was killed because he was gay by people like yourself who REFUSE to understand the WE ARE PEOPLE to. There was also Tina Brandon that was killed because she was having a sexual idenity crisis, also because of people like you.
People don't hate you. I don't hate you. I just want my rights back and not be a second-class citizen. We ALL deserve that. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 16, 2008 8:28 PM:

" Watchdog Fred I know you do not want to join NotHomeGrown in opening a womans lib controversy. When it was written it may not have included us, however now it does. Why? because women did the same thing we are doing now, protested, fought and did not give up for our rights. Get real that is all I will say on that subject as it is a sexist remark and I believe from the way you talk about your own wife that you are not sexist. Please do not jump on a band wagon. As for when I came out of the closet, I came out after I left church yes, but was I a lesbian before that yes. I had girlfriends however they were in secret because as I have said on other blogs I did not want my family to know for fear of how they would react to me. I came from a very religious family as I am sure you can attain from my comments about church. Just because I tried to be what my family wanted did not mean I was not a lesbian. I did not want to loose my family. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 16, 2008 8:36 PM:

" Watchdog Fred cont.. Lucky for me, my family while most do not agree with my life, do not judge me because most of them are true Christians. They stick to their religion and what they are taught which is, treat others how you want to be treated, and judge not lest ye be judged. My problem is not with those who truly follow their religon Fred, it is with those who sit in a pew every Sunday praising God and saying amen, but leaving that place of worship and judging and using their religious beliefs to sit on a pedastal and judge others around them for not having the same beliefs. I do not remember ever calling you a sheep, however is that not what Christians call themselves? Washed clean by the blood of that lamb? You should not be offended by something you call yourself. No where in any of my statements have I put down the religious, only those bigots who call themselves religious, but in the same breath, judge, and treat their fellow man like second rate humans, two things that are against the bible they use to justify their behavior. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 16, 2008 8:48 PM:

" Watchdog Fred cont.. You are right 24 yrs is not wasted, I learned for myself that while I do believe in God, I do not believe in organized religion. That does not mean that those who do I will judge, or fight against. There are many Christians, Muslims, Buddists, Catholics who do not take it upon themselves to run the lives of others, they love all.

Merriam Websters Dictionary
Bigot

: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices ; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group (as a racial or ethnic group) with hatred and intolerance

Homosexuals deal with hatred and intolerance on a daily basis. There is not a prejudice bone in my body Fred. I make my assesment of individual on an individual basis, on how they treat me, how they treat my family, I do not believe that a persons age, race, ethnicity, gender, religion or sexual orientation makes that person who they are, I believe those are things that contribute to the whole person. You have to know someone before you can judge them. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 16, 2008 8:54 PM:

" Watchdog Fred cont..Now I ask you, read these blogs who are the ones who are clumping people together based on their sexual orientation? How many times has someone told Cammy or myself or other homosexuals on here that we are just as bad as those stealing signs, or the violence taking place down south just because we are homosexuals too? How many times are we told my those on here who are "religious" that we are immoral and basically bad people because we are homosexual? Not a one of them knows me or Cammy personally, that is judging us and that my friend is a sin. That is something I know for a fact as I have a religious background. When I reference religion I am not doing so ignorant, I know what the bible says, I know how those who believe in the bible are supposed to act. There are not many on here who are living by what they preach. By replying to them and calling them out on it does not make me a bigot or prejudice, it means that I am pointing out "practice what you preach" "

Melissa wrote on Nov 16, 2008 9:06 PM:

" Watchdog Fred cont..Finally Fred, Even in the bible it states that Church and State are seperate. Give to Ceasars that which is Ceasars, Give to the Lord that which is the Lords. We have freedom of religion in this country which means that while you can believe in God and follow the bible I do not have to do so. It also states that no religion will be made for the state, which means that while you have the right to live your life by your religion, I do not have to live by your beliefs. Just because you believe that what I am doing is wrong that does not mean that it is. You are entitled to that belief however you are not entitled to take my civil rights away from me based on your religious beliefs, You can not tell me that religion did not take part in any of your arguments to keep us from getting married. It is sad in a country where there is freedom of speach, freedom of religion, the right to the persuit of happinesss, life and liberty, people can impose their personal beliefs into a law that everyone has to follow. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 17, 2008 8:34 AM:

" To: Melissa,

It is sad in a country where there is freedom of speach, freedom of religion, the right to the persuit of happinesss, life and liberty, people can impose their personal beliefs into a law that everyone has to follow. "

Well according to Article X of the Bill of Rights which you all keep bringing the right you say doesn't exist is the last four words of that sentence. Or By The People.

According to the governance of our country the people are a majority vote of their wishes, which is exactly what Proposition is and it shall stand. "Whether you like it or not!"

I agree with your assessment on religous people just like in all things there are hypochrits, especially those perpetrating a lie for twenty four years and then turn their backs on their very own religion, that is the severest of hypocrits. You knew long before you acted that you were a lesbian. You even admitted to lesbian acts while attending church, so tell me who is the hypocrit? I'm not your judge, Continued "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 17, 2008 8:40 AM:

" To: Melissa,
(Continued)
Those lesbian acts while attending church are tantamount to the hypochricies you listed of others. I'm not your judge, God is! Thou shalt not worship false idols. On another site here I posted several facts taken from scientific studies and from gay magazines you might want to read them and see what your own kind is saying, before you denounce me and my opinions.
Those violent acts of temper tantrum being enacted against Mormons is not justified. As a believer in God, you tell me that others preventing them from entering their Temple of Worship is acceptable behavior. That handcuffing each other together to block entrance to a public building is not breaking the law? These actions are acceptable in your eyes for your cause, then don't be surprised by the reprecutions of such behavior. If this was blacks demonstrating this way the Police and National Guard both would have already gotten involved. When many community leaders see the differences being made there will be lawsuits and outcries of discrimination leading to an all out Federal Investigation of our Govenor and Lt. Govenor. (Continued) "

jeff wrote on Nov 17, 2008 8:42 AM:

" Fred,

Ummm WOW,

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 14, 2008 7:29 PM:

“It is hard to take anyone serious who speaks about Priests and refers to them as Priets.”

And then

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 14, 2008 7:36 PM:

“In face all it does those little temper tantrums is convince us that voting yes on 8 was the right move and is bringing us a landslide of votes from those who voted no last time.”

“Waste your money, contributions and ignare just causes of illness and disaster for your pompous choices in life.”

I guess this means you don’t even take yourself seriously. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 17, 2008 8:46 AM:

" To: Melissa,
(Continued)
The Govenor and Lt. Govenor took an oath to protect all Californians not just the GLBTQ's and when this media frenzy begins they will be reminded of it. Do you think that the Temple in Utah is gonna take this laying down, do you not think that there is already communications in the mail to the Govenor seeking a stopage of this behavior? Why did the Gay Community pick on the Mormon Community in California, because they are the least in numbers in the state. Because they know for the most part Mormons will not strike the first blow or any blow for that matter. I am afraid one of these days your friends are gonna step in front of the wrong congregation and get their comeupance in a hurry. Then people are going to cry out and say the religous are at fault. I was always taught you go looking for trouble and it will find you. But in numbers you may not want to deal with or circumstances way beyond your control any longer. (Continued) "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 17, 2008 8:54 AM:

" To: Melissa,
(Continued)
You can't keep pointing your stick in the air like it is a sword and not expect somewhere down the line to end up in a sword fight. The protests are no longer peaceful, they are blockades to people's salvation and interferring with day to day business at city hall. Niether case is about peace, which changes your peaceful demonstration to an ignited fuse to the keg of a riot. Regardless of who should light the fuse, it will be the GLBTQ community that is blamed for it. If you weren't in people's faces a riot couldn't ignite itself. That my friend is common sense, the Police are stirring clear maybe that is what they are waiting for in this scenario, for the match to be struck to light the time bomb?
The Mormons have been persecuted before that is what is really hypochritical about the entire scenario. A minority chooses to disrupt another minority as punishment for their beliefs. Senator Biden supported Prop 8 why aren't you demonstrating in front of his office? Why aren't you trying to get him fired? "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Nov 17, 2008 12:44 PM:

" Let's see if this makes it. A post didn't make it where I said the all men created equal comeback was an attempt at tongue in check humor. A majority of those for homosexual marriage keep trying to quote things that make us that are against it as evil. But when I point out the fact that the forefathers only put down that all men are created equal, that is exactly what they meant. It took an ammendment to allow women to vote, and guess what I didn't have part in either. You all jump on me as a Christian, I have never stated my religion, I could be Jewish, Christian, Muslim or Buddhist, I guess that means you can write off Hindu. But for all that I know, none of the major religions of this Earth condone homosexual activity. I keep emphasizing that my right to religion is covered in the constitution, and my religious belief is marriage is between a man and a woman. By denying that you are trouncing on my ineliable rights. continued "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Nov 17, 2008 12:49 PM:

" continued: I keep asking for any of you to quote the exact verbage in the constitution that covers marriage, whether hetero or homo. Can't find it? Why? Because it is a religious thing, and just to make you happy they kept governement and religion seperate on that.
Why do all of you have to call me names? I have never done that to any of you, yet many of you always resort to calling Alihandero, WDF, or myself names. Again I try to stick with facts, and just to clear it up, I never said in fact that invertro fertilization itself is adultery, because there are married couples that have had to use this procedure to produce their own offspring. My reference of it was since part of the offspring was from someone outside the marriage, could that be considered adultery. So please stay with the facts exactly as I put them. continued "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Nov 17, 2008 12:55 PM:

" continued: you call me a sexist because I pointed out the forefathers of this nation wrote all MEN are created equal, and inferred that would mean all of women posting on here would be left out from that. I only posted what is written, I didn't say that it was right, but again none of you acknowledged the fact that for nearly 150 years women did not have the same rights as men, and it took a special ammendment, not a judges ruling to allow woment the right to vote. I also stated that in the beginning only land owning males were allowed to vote, as our forefathers thought that only men of that stature would be intelligent enough to cast a reasonalbe vote. Whenever anyone from either side has made a misstatement, I have attempted to correct them. I prefer fact to emotion. Someone keeps bringing up the Priests who have accosted children, and guess what, you don't see me out there with a sign saying it is their right under the constitution for the pursuit of happiness. continued "

NotHomeGrown wrote on Nov 17, 2008 1:02 PM:

" continued: Those priests will have to worry about that on judgement day, along with a lot of other so called "christians", Feel free to change "christians" with any other word, for I have stated before that none of us are without sin. In some religions the act of child birth is the first original sin for all, for if Adam and Eve had followed God's will then there would not have been the need for procreation as they would have lived forever.
Why are the No on Prop 8 people harrassing the Mormons? Do you know for a fact that all Mormons voted yes onf Prop 8? And even if they did, isn't that their right? I have never seen anything that says that voting either way is illegal, and if you do it right you should be doing it based upon a complete understanding of the proposition. And for many people that believe in their religion, homosexual marriages are forbidden, and to vote differently would put them in violation of God's will "

Alihandero wrote on Nov 17, 2008 4:30 PM:

" Random thoughts on this twice-decided issue . . .

"Look at me . . . I'm NORMAL, I really, really am!
...And I BELONG and I am WORTHY, goshdarnit!"

OK now, calm down, we get it... "

Melissa wrote on Nov 17, 2008 6:15 PM:

" Watchdog Fred, I no longer go to church, why? Because I will not be a hypocrite. If trying to please and keep my family happy makes me a hypocrite so be it, if not wanting my family to turn their back on me makes me a hypocrite so be it. As for The Mormons, how soon we forget who started Prop 8? How soon we forget that despite the fact that participating in a political campaign can cause them to loose the tax exempt status(hmmm ironic huh?) they choose to fund millions of dollars to pass a Prop that violates one groups civil rights. I can not believe the news the other night all those religious leaders asking for us to stop protesting the churches because Prop 8 had nothing to do with religion, yet guess who the biggest backers were? Guess who were the ones holding rallies and protests for the passing of Prop 8. Guess who were the ones that were using God as the reason they did not want the Prop to fail. You used God as your battle cry, now it has nothing to do with God? C'mon Fred, its common sense "

Melissa wrote on Nov 17, 2008 6:20 PM:

" Watchdog Fred, you are right the gov, and lt gov. did take an oath to defend all people and since my marrying my girlfriend has nothing to do with you, will not effect you or your marriage, will not effect your ability to worship and go to church I guess it is the LGBTQ community that needs the defending huh?
Fred you are not my judge huh? They why is it you feel you have the right to tell me I can not get married because you do not agree with my lifestyle? Why do you think you can call me a hypocrite for trying to do right by my family and embrace their beliefs? Hmmmmm I think you need to do some soul searching. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 6:01 PM:

" To: Melissa wrote on Nov 17, 2008 8:20 PM:

Fred you are not my judge huh? They why is it you feel you have the right to tell me I can not get married because you do not agree with my lifestyle? Why do you think you can call me a hypocrite for trying to do right by my family and embrace their beliefs? Hmmmmm I think you need to do some soul searching. "

I didn't do any of that Proposition 8 did, I just voted for it. That is my right as a Registered Voter in California, it is the right of all people up to and including the Moromons.

You chastize one group of people then you call for the resignations of voters who backed this issue? Yet if either of those circumstances were happening to you, you would be the first to yell Prejudice/Discrimination and go bawling into the night. What makes you think those actions aren't prejudice to the Mormon Faith and the Hard Working people of California?

A vote was taken for the seond time and it became an amendment, much more difficult to overturn. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 18, 2008 11:01 PM:

" To: Melissa wrote on Nov 17, 2008 8:20 PM

How dare you compare your cause with the same persecution and suffering that women voters went through and balck men and women went through in slavery.

They are apples and oranges. People in slavery couldn't drive a new car, they couldn't buy a house, they couldn't vote in elections.

Yet you say your suffering is equal to all of them. How damn selfish and misdirected can a person be, to have the gall to compare theirselves to a slave who worked 16 hours a day sunup to sundown day after day year after year in bondage.

Unable to enjoy many of the freedoms you have enjoyed all your life, such as a free education, church worship, freedom to travel and move around the country all things they did not have, you should be ashamed of yourself.

The only thing pursecuting you is your own guilt ridden conscience over your choices in life. That is your burden to carry not the voting public of Californian's. Your options are clear marriage is between a man and a woman! PERIOD. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 19, 2008 1:11 AM:

" Fred in case you did not know we are hard working people too, for some reason and I still have not figured out why, some of you seem to think that we just sit around all day, do nothing, but cause discord. Let me remind you, we have families, we have jobs, we have hobbies, we are every bit as human as you. We have every bit the right to be equal, and have the same rights as you as well. In a equal free society if you can marry so can i, if you can protest so can i. "

Dandre wrote on Nov 19, 2008 6:26 AM:

" Fred... you sure you're not Sara Palin? "

WitchOne wrote on Nov 19, 2008 8:56 AM:

" All I can say is that this town is chock full of ignorance. The Bible doesn't give anyone authority to judge another. I guess that would be up to God, right? As far as the legalities go, legalizing gay marriage does not threaten anyone. It doesn't do a darn thing to straight marriages. It doesn't make your bible any less precious to you (if that's your thing). Please state your views but don't act like homosexuals (or witches) worship satan just because we don't hold with your views. Be a spiritual person, AND a deep thinker....Not just someone who can memorize verses...... "

Deb wrote on Nov 19, 2008 2:23 PM:

" The California Supreme Court agreed today to consider complaints by opponents of Proposition 8 that it improperly revised the constitution to ban gay marriage.

The court has asked the parties involved to write briefs arguing three issues:

(1) Is Proposition 8 invalid because it constitutes a revision of, rather than an amendment to, the California Constitution?

(2) Does Proposition 8 violate the separation-of-powers doctrine under the California Constitution?

(3) If Proposition 8 is not unconstitutional, what is its effect, if any, on the marriages of same-sex couples performed before the adoption of Proposition 8?

By March there should be a ruling. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 19, 2008 3:18 PM:

" Watchdog Fred, I have nothing to be ashamed of! Discrimination takes many forms. Mistreatment of minorities is not the same, Yes the blacks went thru horrible horrible times, but they fought for their rights against what happened to them, Women fought for their rights as well, and guess what Fred I AM A WOMAN I can refer my fight to that fight if is so desire, I still find stereo typing everywhere because I am a woman, Homosexuals have been murdered, raped, abused, treated like second rate citizens for long enough. That is our form of mistreatment, every minority has expierenced different mistreatments, why, because we are a different minority. But all the attitudes about our civil rights are the same. Now as for me feeling guilty, are you so arogant that you think you know my mind because I am homosexual and you are heterosexual? I have nothing to feel guilty about, however you have plenty to feel guilty about. You aided in rewritting the constitution to omit a group of fellow citizens, you sit on a blog and day after day, be little and judge people you do not know, and you call yourself a Christian. "

Cammy wrote on Nov 19, 2008 4:19 PM:

" Watch wrote:I didn't do any of that Proposition 8 did, I just voted for it. Watch dog fred also wrote:
A vote was taken for the seond time and it became an amendment, much more difficult to overturn. " "
You DID JUST THAT fred! You voted to "outcast "us and separate us from other U.S citizens by denying our equal right as U.S citizens. You call that fair? Yes, we are a minority, but we still ARE U.S Citizens, but now thanks to you and Prop 8, we are now second class citizens. You used your religious befiefs TO MAKE THAT DECISION. That is what make it wrong. You have such hatred towards us and don't say that you don't because i have read all your blogs Fred. You call us bad people, what what about all the hatred you use regaurding us? Yes you have a right of speech, but it just goes to show a person, just what type of person you really are. We're demons? I think you need to reevaluate and seriously do some soul searching in yourself.The true demon is those are ful of hate wether it be gay or straight. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 19, 2008 4:48 PM:

" To: Dandre wrote on Nov 19, 2008 8:26 AM:

" Fred... you sure you're not Sara Palin? "

No dandy dre' I am not, and if I were I'll tell ya one thing McCain would have won. You Betcha! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 19, 2008 5:20 PM:

" To: Deb wrote on Nov 19, 2008 4:23 PM:

Continued once again: To give you an idea of what you are up against in the Supreme Court
you have: Seven Justices appointed by Republicans and 2 Justice appointed by a Democrat. Honestly, what do you think your chances are?
This is a done deal.

Scalia Reagan
Roberts Bush
Stevens Ford
Kennedy Reagan
Souter Bush
Thomas Bush
Ginsburg Clinton
Breyer Clinton
Alito Bush

Corrected Copy! "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 19, 2008 5:23 PM:

" To: Deb wrote on Nov 19, 2008 4:23 PM:

You didn't provide a list for your sources Deb, where did you get this information CNN or Bill Mahr? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 19, 2008 6:20 PM:

" To: Cammy wrote on Nov 19, 2008 6:19 PM:

If you think I hate you, you are sorely mistaken I have much more important stuff to do with my life than to hate you. I've never even met you, why would I hate you. Now the people who are getting people fired and the people blocking Mormons from attending church, the one's preventing people from conducting their business at City Hall in Fresno. Now they might be a different story. they preach non-violence out of oneside of their mouths and then do violent things the next. Those I don't hate either, I just find their behavior illegal fist and suspect second and think they should be punished to the full extent of the law. If it were Mormons keeping you from worshiping, I'd feel the same way about them. Now I suppose you are gonna tell me you worship marriage that, that is your new found religion? I didn't do anything but use my Constitutional right to vote on a Proposition, if you want to be mad be mad at Jerry Brown he let it be on the ballot. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 19, 2008 6:30 PM:

" To: Melissa wrote on Nov 19, 2008 5:18 PM:

My original question still remains for you and still is unanswered. If you hate men so much then why in the world do you want you or your partner to pattern yourselves after one? Or is all that butch haircut, swagger when you walk and tuff shoulders back just for show? One of you portrays the part of a man in your relationship, and you don't deny it. But you rant and rave about hating us and despising us. You are most assuredly praying for our extinction and we are suppose to welcome that with open arms? How ignorant can you possibly be to think you or your mate can put on a shirt and beomce us? You can't, this is not planet Zombie Babe where it is ruled by women. You may find this hard to believe but there is group of women called heterosexuals that would miss us a lot if you offed us all? Why can't you be satisfied with your rights in a partnership agreement and let me have my marriage certificate? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 19, 2008 6:39 PM:

" To: Melissa wrote on Nov 19, 2008 5:18 PM:
Once again you bring up the minority connection where you some how think you and the black community are somehow sisters in persecution. Answer me the following, when was the last time a LGBTQ was tar & feathered, linched, skinned alive, forced to watch some man rape their spouse and have his child? Can you answer that question? When you go out in public do the water fountains say LGBTQ's and Straights. Do the restaurants, bars, liquor stores, grocery stores, restrooms all have signs saying no LGBTQ's allowed. Do you suffer the loss of an education because people don't think your brain functions as good as theirs? You my dear are the one who needs to search her soul and check your priorities and your significantly easier life. Before you even go there with me in that famous port in the south Northfolk, Virginia they use to have signs that said; Sailors and dogs keep off the grass! I was spat upon when I returned from Vietnam, so don't tell me I don't know what second class feels like. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 19, 2008 6:45 PM:

" I don't understand we voted your justices over turned, we voted again and that overturned the justices and now you want the Supreme Court to hear it and somehow wave a wand and make it legal again. Then we will have to take the Supreme Court Justices to court to demonstrate our rights have been violated under Article X of the Bill of Rights.
We already gave you San Francisco and Palm Springs along with Palm Desert & Desert Hot Springs which I think we should start working on taking back. Because if you can be indian givers then so can we? Can you imagine the Gay Parade having to be done in Porterville? That's kind of funny when you stop and think about it! Well it could have been in Huron! "

Melissa wrote on Nov 19, 2008 7:57 PM:

" Watchdog Fred are you seriously going to lead on like you do not know of the hate crimes commited against homosexuals? Do you know who Matthew Sheppard is? Look him up. I personally know quite a few homosexuals who were jumped, brutally beaten raped and left for dead. Hate Crimes Fred, they are against ALL minorities and they have and still do happen to the LGBTQ Community. There are places we are not welcome, yes there are places where we face physical harm if we attempt to go there, As for signs telling us where we can and can not go you answered that one yourself with this statement

"We already gave you San Francisco and Palm Springs along with Palm Desert & Desert Hot Springs which I think we should start working on taking back. "~Watchdog Fred

Sounds to me like the signs are posted where we can and can not go, since you all were so generous to give us these places. Once again Fred you contridict your own statements. "

Deb wrote on Nov 19, 2008 8:21 PM:

" My source WD
http://www.sacbee.com/1095/story/1412194.html "

Melissa wrote on Nov 19, 2008 8:32 PM:

" Watchdog Fred I have never nor will I ever hate men. You sound kind of paranoid in your way of thought that we are out to get you.Just because I am not emotionally or physically attracted to men does not me I hate them or want to off them. I do not want my girlfriend to be a man, that would kind of defeat the purpose of being a lesbian now wouldnt it, Butches are strong, dominant women, that is just who they are, they are not comfortable dressing in skirts, high heels or doing makeup. That is who they are not who they are trying to be. It is their personality. Does my girlfriend take on the dominant role in our relationship? Yes she does, however there are straight couples where the woman is dominant, there are butch/femme couples where the femme is dominant. Yes Fred I have answered this question for you before, but if you have forgotten there is the answer, AGAIN. Why cant I be satisfied that another citizen of this state has more rights than me? Hmmmm I wonder why, equality Fred that is what this is all about. "

Melissa wrote on Nov 19, 2008 8:39 PM:

" Watchdog Fred cont...My signifigantly easier life?! What makes you think my life is easier? I take care of my terminally ill mother, I am a straight A student in college, I do child care full time, and I am a full time girlfriend. Where is it you get any of that is easy? You do not know me or anything about my life except that which I just told you, you assume to much Fred. You say you know what it is like to be a second class citizen yet you have no problem voting to make a class of people second class, does that sound hypocritical to anyone else? Really Fred. "

crystal wrote on Nov 19, 2008 10:05 PM:

" continued....

Yes we would get refused service at gas stations and resturaunts, not to mention getting raped and beat to death in the parking lot while cops did little to nothing.Times are changing.More and more people are getting less and less tolerant of the abuse.Just since this past election hate crimes against homos has went up 6%.Thats a lot.But your too bust whinning about us protesting being so bad and how we should be prosecuted for what?Fighting back. I say its about time we stand up for what we believe in and stop going with the flow of what christians "THINK" is right.Christians can't all agree on one view of the the bible.How can they all preach so much from this bible that they all have different definitions of.One person believes its saying one thing and another defines it different.I for one believe in god.I just don't beleive in the bible because the bible is MAN made and has many flaws and contradictions.Thats my freedom to worship how,when,and where I want.To me god loves everyone and if me being gay is a sin then thats my choice and christians are just as wrong for doing gods job by comdemningme. "

Deb wrote on Nov 19, 2008 11:38 PM:

" WD - just wanted to know why you're listing US Supreme Court justices...

My post indicated CA Supreme Court - And, the US Supreme Court won't hear this for a long while as they don't want to deal with it, they'll send it back to the state if is requested to be heard.

And, maybe by that time there'll be another couple of democratic judges. Certainly that was one of my greatest concerns when I voted for PE Obama.

So, here's the State Justices:
Carlos R. Moreno
Joyce L. Kennard
Kathryn Mickle Werdegar
Ronald M. George
Ming W. Chin
Marvin R. Baxter
Carol A. Corrigan "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 20, 2008 12:45 PM:

" To: Deb wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:38 AM:


Because is that not the goal of the LGBTQ community to make this a national affair. No pun intended. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:13 PM:

" To: crystal wrote on Nov 20, 2008 12:05 AM:

" continued....

Yes we would get refused service at gas stations and resturaunts, not to mention getting raped and beat to death in the parking lot while cops did little to nothing

Crystal, Crystal, Crystal, please tell me the Police Report Numbers at the Hanford Police Department where I may obtain these reports of such haneous crimes? You do realize making a false police report is a crime, now don't you? Please tell me where and when this happened to you in Kings County?

Maybe in the deep recesses of the south where Cable Television and Melmac haven't been introduced yet this may have happened and continue to happen. But in California, in Kings County, I think you been watching too many episodes of "In the Heat of the Night." "Amos and Andy", "Jack Benny" and reruns of "Have Gun Will Travel".

The fantasy world you live in, doesn't exist today, it hasn't for at least forty years. You speak of civil rights and yet don't even know they've already been dealt with, sorry you weren't included. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:21 PM:

" It simply astonishes me here, how people complain about gay bashing in one breath and bash Christians in the next breath. What further exaserbates the argument is when they say they don't believe in God, yet get so upset when his word is repeated here in the blog. When someone's says when "God can come and arrest me, I'll believe in him". What simple miracles can you ask for and in fact I bet God was involved in every crime and arrrest you ever committed Idose. It further makes me ill to think that every comparison in life that you make dose, involves a criminal act. Yes God can be in your life he was in the lives of beggers and thieves. He said let those without sin toss the first stone. You claim what you do behind closed doors is your business, all the Yes on 8 vote does is to ensure you keep it there. Sheesh when you get through hating Mormons, God and everyone else who voted YES on Proposition 8, what's left for you to hate, yourselves! Yet you call us the haters. "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 20, 2008 1:29 PM:

" Christian's are entitled to their beliefs by Constitution Amendment and by an even higher force than that, by God's word itsetlf. So when you use his name in vein or deny his existance he has a right to rebut what you say; as Christian's and as believers that job is left up to us. He states wherever three or more shall gather, I will listen, what an awesome God, he doesn't need to fill a stadium to come listen and speak to us. He doesn't require anything other than we join his army and contribute to his campaign. Not unlike Barack Obama and John McCain. Even Barack Obama has sense enough to shout to the roof tops he has a belief in God. Many of you who say you don't believe in God; say you do believe in Barack Hussein Obama. How redundant is that belief, you believe in a mortal man who can maybe save your money and wealth but turn your back on the man that can save your soul. God also said we would be tested. Somehow your politics seem distorted, selfish and suspect. "

crystal wrote on Nov 20, 2008 4:52 PM:

" Watchdog Fred...Where in the world do you get the idea that we want to off man?It sounds to me that you are just a little insecure that women do it better than you can.I don't dress like this cause I want to be a man.I dress like this cause it is comfortable.To me clothes know no gender.I can dress how I want.Maybe your mad cause I can wear what you wear and make it look better.

Nobody was blocking people from getting into there churches to worship.Some heteros seem to beleive that homosexuality is contagious or something.They drive by and see us protesting and immediately roll up windows and spped off like if I sneeze they will catch the gayness.Quit coming up with excuses for your bigotry.Melissa is not saying that our situation is exactly the same as the slave movement.We are talking about two totally different time frames.Now if this was the same time frame it probably wouldn't be that different considering in this time frame we have a lot of new laws and people have somewhat civilized.But our situation is still very bad considering not 10 years ago you could lose your children for being gay. "

Cammy wrote on Nov 20, 2008 8:37 PM:

" WatchDog wrote to Crystal:Crystal, Crystal, Crystal, please tell me the Police Report Numbers at the Hanford Police Department where I may obtain these reports of such haneous crimes? You do realize making a false police report is a crime, now don't you? Please tell me where and when this happened to you in Kings County? WatchDog also wrote;But in California, in Kings County, I think you been watching too many episodes of "In the Heat of the Night." "Amos and Andy", "Jack Benny" and reruns of "Have Gun Will Travel".
The fantasy world you live in, doesn't exist today, it hasn't for at least forty years.

I take MAJOR OFFENSE to that comment! I AM A VICTIM OF A HATE CRIME! I DO HAVE A POLICE REPORT TO BACK IT UP, AND IT WAS AT MY JOB IN THE PARKING LOT IN HANFORD AND I HAD A WITNESS THAT SEEN IT HAPPEN! I had to see a counceler to help deal with it because i was AFRAID to go outside my OWN house!!! This happened in 2004! And you have the nerve to call it haneous crimes? So you see Fred, it DOES EXIST TODAY! "

Cammy wrote on Nov 20, 2008 9:10 PM:

" WatchDog Cont.
I can't believe this nonsense you are saying! Hate Crimes happens EVERYWHERE including KINGS COUNTY! It's been almost 5 yrs since that horrible day,and i still have the pictures to proove it. But you know something Fred, i still see that mans face still to this day in my head, with such hatred and how he hurt me. It took me a very long time to go anywhere alone. I did nothing to him Fred, yet because i'm a lesbian he felt that it was okay to hurt another human being, and of all places, right outside my job! I work in a very PUBLIC place, in a grocery store as a matter of fact. But i guess he thought it was ok to call me very hateful names and then corner me and shove me around til my body hit hard on the concrete wall. Now Fred, you think it doesn't happen? Walk a day in my shoes so YOU can get verbally and physically abused by people who commit hate crimes and then you tell me if you still think it doesn't exist! I think your the one living in a fantasy world Fred! "

Melissa wrote on Nov 20, 2008 9:16 PM:

" Watchdog Fred, Have you not heard of the hate crimes against homosexuals, please contact the Hanford PD, if they can disclose such information, please do your homework, I urge you, maybe then you will see that we deal with hate, discrimination and horrible acts at the hands of ignorant people, and yes right here in Hanford. I think you live in a bubble if you think it does not happen. In Fresno, a good friend of mine was beaten, raped and left for dead in a parking lot, the reason? She is gay. Get real, take off your blinders, no one is watching to much tv, we have lived this life, we know what happens when we go out in public, we see the way people look at us, the reasons people come up with to get us out of their establishments. Like it or not it happens and yes right here in Kings County. Do not imply Crystal makes any kind of false claims, she has lived this liife, was kicked out of the Marine Corps for it. No she did not tell, they asked. Nice huh Dont ask, Dont tell does not work. "

Cammy wrote on Nov 20, 2008 10:21 PM:

" WatchDog Cont.
Did it ever occur to you just how many hate crimes are commited everyday that don't get reported to the police in KIngs County? Far too many. Again, Did you ever hear of Mathrew Shepard or Brandon Teena(also was known as Teena Brandon)? They were victims of hate crimes and sadly they didnt survive. Look them up and research them. Please, i encourage that you do. There is also a movie based on a true story about these two. One is called,"The Mathrew Shepard Story", and the other is called, "Boys Don't Cry." This is a sad world we live in and it's a shame that people's life is cut short due to these hate crimes. There are thousands and thousands that are victims and or don't survive. How sheltered you must be to think that it doesn't exist when in fact is does and happens everyday.When i was out rallying for no on 8, I lost count of how many times people drove by and said hateful things like callings us fags and so forth.Hate crime went up 6% during elections. My wife got attacked at Wal-Mart during the week of elections. Yet, it doesn't exist? "

Cammy wrote on Nov 20, 2008 10:28 PM:

" WatchDog Fred,

THE STATE BAR OF CALIFORNIA STATES:

What is a hate crime?
A hate crime is committed when someone uses violence against you or your property or threatens violence because of who you are, who people believe you are or the people with whom you associate. In California, the law specifically forbids someone to use force or threats of force to interfere with your rights under the United States or California constitutions or other federal or state laws because of certain facts (real or perceived) about you. These include your race, color, religion, ancestry, national origin, disability, gender, or sexual orientation.

Civil law also forbids using violence or threats of violence motivated by these same personal attributes, as well as age, political affiliation, or position in a labor dispute. It doesn't matter whether the attributes are real or simply perceived.

What are some examples of hate crimes?

Hate crimes take many forms. They can include physical assault, attempted assault or a written or spoken threat of assault. An assault is committed when one person attempts to physically or emotionally harm another person.
Yet, you say it doesn't exists? "

Cammy wrote on Nov 20, 2008 10:56 PM:

" WatchDog Fred,

Many of you who say you don't believe in God;
~WatchDog Fred


I do believe in God and so does Melissa and Crystal. We believe that God loves all(straight or gay) We were born the way we are. We are who we are. God made no mistake in making us. So don't sit there and try to manipulate the subject Fred. Everyone has their own religion and their own religious beliefs. Sorry us gays and lesbians don't use your religion of your choice. We have a religion of our choice and our God loves all regaurdless of who we love. We also believe in: "Treat Others As You would want to be treated" as well as "Do not judge unless you want to be judged yourself" It is for God to JUDGE on JUDGEMENT DAY, not you or anyone else. "

jacks_mom wrote on Nov 25, 2008 8:33 AM:

" there are a few people on here that state to be Athiest. and have said it loud and clear so my question is, what is the difference of Athiest speaking their thoughts or beliefs and getting the ten commandments removed from court rooms, prayer from schools, Gods name off our currency etc. that is what they believe and they protest, fight even sue to get it because they dont want to see it out in public. but a Christian speakes their mind on homosexual actions and this makes us Bigotts, bible thumpers, Reveliers, and the list goes on. what is the difference Jeff? "

Watchdog Fred wrote on Nov 26, 2008 10:14 PM:

" To: Cammy wrote on Nov 21, 2008 12:56 AM:

I've never said I didn't have a belief in God Cammy. Quite the opposite you must have confused something dandy dre', dose, Jeff, or one of those other atheist said; it sure wasn't me.

Furthermore, to believe in God is one thing to abide by God's word is an entirely different situation. That's like saying you believe in Del Taco but tonight you'll eat at Taco Bell, is it not? "




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      Lemoore Golfing Lessons
      Lemoore Golfing Lessons
      Monday, March, 15 2010
      (5) Photos
      Hanford Youth Baseball Opening Day
      Hanford Youth Baseball Opening Day
      Monday, March, 15 2010
      (8) Photos
      Arbor Day
      Arbor Day
      Monday, March, 15 2010
      (6) Photos

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      Vintage Hanford
      Vintage Hanford
      Monday, December, 15 2008
      (1) Photos
      Vacation Photos
      Vacation Photos
      Thursday, November, 20 2008
      (43) Photos
      Events
      Events
      Thursday, November, 20 2008
      (38) Photos

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