Devils Advocate wrote on Jul 11, 2008 2:35 PM:
" Whiners. My daughters were learning the basics of Algebra before they learned their multiplication tables. Its not any more complex than the other basics of the math. It should be taught in elementary grades, not waiting until high school so kids develop an irrational fear of it. Alegebra is critical for success outside of education - the real world doesn't spoon feed you with preformated problems.
Of course, I've come to expect educators to scream for more money anytime something is changed, and to beg for less strict standards in other areas so they can be even less accountable. "
Hmmmmmm wrote on Jul 11, 2008 5:29 PM:
" I personally feel these students could put basic math to better use than algebra. I have been in the workforce for well over 30 years and I have not needed algebra to get a job. This is something that should be taught to those planning on going into higher education. Basic skills and vocational training is needed more than algebra. It is sad when you see high school graduates who cannot read, write, spell, or do basic math properly. "
Tracy wrote on Jul 11, 2008 6:13 PM:
" As someone who once worked at a bank and later employed teenagers and young adults in a retail store, I believe there should be mandatory testing on balancing checkbooks, making change and adding up how much all those items in your shopping cart are going to cost before you get to the checkout line. Maybe, considering all of the people who got sucked into the sub-prime mess, we should throw in some lessons on mortgages, credit and not spending more than you earn. We should show these kids how to complete a tax return so they don't go out and pay someone $300.00 to do it. I employed the Valedictorian of of Lemoore High School one year and when the register went dead, the kid couldn't figure sales tax. I hope he's making enough money know to hire an accountant. "
Sara wrote on Jul 11, 2008 7:38 PM:
" My grade school did not teach any algebra. When I took the qualifying test to find out which math level I would begin in high school, I tested into geometry (above algebra). My parents were furious when they realized that my school had not taught us any algebra, and therefore, not prepared us for high school. They went to the school board and worked with them to revise the curriculum, and now that school teaches adequate algebra skills to 8th graders. I never did take algebra, and it was a real struggle to catch up in geometry, statistics, trigonometry, etc.
I don't know that mandated tests are the answer, but good for them for recognizing the need to raise education standards. "
Azalea wrote on Jul 11, 2008 7:40 PM:
" I'm a middle school math teacher who has taught in elementary, middle and high schools. I specialize in helping kids like math and realize that they can do it. I have taught in schools in poor areas as well as well-to-do ones.
Lots of kids are behind in math because they are passed on to the next grade year after year. Many are convinced that they aren't capable of doing math.
I work hard to convince kids that they can do it, and I meet them where they are and build the missing skills. To put Algebra out there as required just throws more bricks onto a building that may not have an adequate foundation as it is. I disagree with forcing this. It should be available, not required. "
Teacher wrote on Jul 11, 2008 7:53 PM:
" Once again the "non-teaching educators" sitting in Sacramento make a stupid decision. Let's treat all children the same, even those who have disabilities and those who just may be alittle behind in one subject. Now we will have to focus on pushing all the kids in algebra and maing them the same. If they do not understand the basics, we'll just have to shove it down their throat quickly to move on to the test prep. Afterall...no child left behind, means no child moves forward. "
about time wrote on Jul 11, 2008 9:17 PM:
" It is about time that somebody in this state tries to raise the expectation scale related to mathematics. We already routinely dumb down most classes and no shock the teachers are already worried since they probably don't know algebra either. I began learning algebra in 6th grade and had a good understanding by 8th grade. Many other countries teach algebra in grade school. What resources do we need, a new math book?? If we can't afford a new math book we are in trouble. You don't even need the book if you have a good teacher. Go Arnold, its about time someone has a little faith in our students, too bad teachers see this as a negative, it is a very good idea. I only wish it pushed teaching more math in earlier grades. As for the Valedictorian from Lemoore, at least he knew how to run the register which is sadly more than most people can do, and he could obviously calculate his GPA average. Why don't we get rid of all the fiction books and have students read something that actually teaches them something. "
I agree wrote on Jul 11, 2008 10:12 PM:
" Well said, Tracy! We have stepped it up in education in many areas at the expense of others (like voc ed, music and art) and I have trouble seeing the benefits! Kindergarten is like kindercollege, we are slaves to the almighty "tests" and yet students graduate without the basic life skills that you mentioned! "
Here we go again wrote on Jul 11, 2008 10:22 PM:
" More "Education Requirements"! When is the state going to do something original? It seems the state wants to continue to ADD to the many assessments already plaguing our school system. I'm all for educating our kids, don't get me wrong, but the state needs to better fund our education system before they decide to require more from our schools and kids. I know opinions vary when it comes to education, those who feel money is mismanaged, those who feel the teachers are overpaid, and those who are realistic and see that the funding for our kids education continues to shrink. Just so those who are NOT in education know, algebra is introduced as early as kindergarten. YES kindergarten, basic algebra, not the advanced algebraic equations that we saw in high school. I do agree with Tracy 100% that basic, fundamental life skills like balancing a checkbook, using credit wisely, making change are practical in daily life, not everyone will have the need to find the value of X, Y, and Z in their everyday lives. "
Outtatowner wrote on Jul 12, 2008 12:53 AM:
" We need our eighth graders to master Algebra 1 to be competetive in the global marketplace. Passing legislation to mandate it isn't going to make it happen. Our eighth graders are capable of mastering algebra 1 given adequate support. We are no where near capable of providing adequate suppport for our children to master algebra 1 in the eighth grade.
Well-intentioned legislation. Just not realistic legislation. "
more questions wrote on Jul 12, 2008 3:49 AM:
" I agree that math is extremely important, but we have to be realistic about exactly what classes we are requiring students to pass in order to graduate. I also agree that we really need to concentrate our efforts on more vocational education because believe it or not, not every kid is going to need or want to persue a bachelors degree. How about more culinary arts, woodworking-cabinetry, welding, HVAC, electrical,general business skills and lots more AG. And although it is very important to learn about character and decision making/morality, shouldn't this be the responsibility of the parents? I love the fact that every year the seniors spend ONE WHOLE DAY learning all about ethics, right before they graduate. How about all four years? Why can't this be a part of their English or Social Studies classes that they have to take every year? "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 12, 2008 3:52 PM:
" Did the City Council somehow have input into the Governators Educational Policy and we didn't know it. At a time when there is crunch on budget Arnold wants more mandated crap thrown into the mix with no money to pay for it. Boy does this sound familar. We are graduating students who can't make correct change at a fast food outlet and Arnold wants eighth graders to pass Algebra. Well I think by that age they should be able to provide a Thesis on the Economy and why you should never elect a foreigner as Governor of the state you live in, as well. All due before voting age in the counselors office. This is not Hamburg you can't legislate intelligence nor demand it and have it suddenly appear at your campuses. If we don't get this guy out of here he will have us all wear black boots, brown shirts having us click our heels and salute with our arms outstretched. How much longer is he in charge of things? He is slowly converting Maria to be a Republican watch the selection as VP for Obama. "
Teacher wrote on Jul 12, 2008 9:17 PM:
" To "About Time:"
I am a teacher and yes I know algebra. I just thought I'd help you out with your ignorance. "
about time wrote on Jul 13, 2008 8:52 PM:
" To teacher, if you took a poll of other teachers, you are probably the only one who would openly say they know Algebra or "like" math, of course you already know that but failed to say it. I took Algebra in 9th grade, what difference did 1 year make from 8th to 9th, absolutely no difference at all. In case you didn't know Algebra 1 is a freshman math class so 9th graders can take it and easily pass it if they had a good math teacher in grade school. Good math teachers in grade school are extremely rare since most teachers went through our education system that does not stess mathematics enough. Most teachers in grade school openly say they don't like math and if you don't like math you can't teach math. We should have specialized math teachers in grade school like you do in high school and college. Why don't we follow the college model and have specialized teachers for every area they are teaching, a generally educated teacher can only teach at a general level. Specialized teachers that rotate through classes is the solution. "
about time wrote on Jul 13, 2008 9:02 PM:
" Devils Advocate is right on. If the majority of teachers would teach instead of whining we wouldn't need state imposed testing of our students. My kids are soooo bored in math class it should be a crime. We are competing in a world economy and against workers in places like India with M.S. degrees and PhD degrees who work for 1/5 of what America pay would be for that education level. We don't have 1 billion people in America so we better be smarter than the billions of people who are now competing against us. Government and teachers need to both wake up and take this serious. Algebra is nothing in the big picture, many students are terrible in English, writing, reading, science, simple math, computers, etc., due to low standards and lack of mandatory teaching and testing to measure success and programs to work with those who have trouble learning. IT IS ABOUT TIME that someone noticed Algebra is important, and we better figure out the other areas are important too. Hopefully this is 1 positive start/step. If we kill it off, so goes our future. "
about time wrote on Jul 13, 2008 9:09 PM:
" To Fred, Arnold is trying to help. Granted he will never be a "Reagan" but considering our best true Republican can not beat any of the pathetic Democrats running for Governor we are lucky to have him in and true liberal Democrats out. Our overall conservative state is being held hostage by the liberal bay area and LA area. The uneducated vote is now controlling our state's future and elected leaders and we will sadly only go down from here. Arnolds worst day is better than a Democratic Governor's best day. I wish Arnold was a "true" Republican, but at least he is a winner with some expectations of change for the better. Hell, Feinstein is actually sounding conservative compared to all the new CA liberals in office. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 13, 2008 11:29 PM:
" All this time I've been led to believe that this world would end in a nuclear holocaust or some other horrible incident and now this person tells me we are all doomed if we can't work simple algebra problems. Gee I wish I would have known before I flushed my Algebra 1 book?
To: about time wrote on Jul 13, 2008 9:02 PM:
IT IS ABOUT TIME that someone noticed Algebra is important, and we better figure out the other areas are important too. Hopefully this is 1 positive start/step. If we kill it off, so goes our future. "
What schools need to do is back up and go all the way back to the basics. Teach Reading, Writing, and Arithmatic maybe we we'll once again begin to graduate intelligent competitive minds who can go on to College and better or higher education. But we first have to re-write the formative education based on a copy of the one on "Little House on The Prairie" and get back to basics. Hire a cloned group of Laura Ingals and proceed. It isn't broken, it's just bent a little; folks. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 13, 2008 11:38 PM:
" Perhaps what we should really do is recruit a group of people who can act as the Dean of Students for our Kindergarden Class. They can create an individual curriculum based on each students ability to say their a,b, c's., distinguish colors, artist will be determined by their ability to stay within the lines, read the days of the month, days of the week and eventually recite all the months.
We psychoanalize everything these days, back to the basics that worked for hundreds and hundreds of years and we will be fine.
Kids, can do more with a computer through my space than the average adult can. They are less afraid to try and do different projects with a computer than most adults. The kids have not let us down, we have let the kids down by trying to esculate their learning curve. If the program was to teach them how to use a computer, I'd say we accomplished it. Where we have failed them is we are not teaching them how to use their minds. Don't need to spend 13 years in a library to realize it's a good source of information. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 13, 2008 11:49 PM:
" about time wrote on Jul 13, 2008 9:09 PM:
My problem with Arnold is supposedly he was coming in to cut spending, give us something besides deficit spending and he has failed miserably. His answer is to borrow on future monies the California Lottery will owe tax payer's or if we don't go along with that an automatic never ending 1 cent increase in sales tax. How do you consider what he has done in office as being fiscally responsible? All that he's done that he promised to do was repeal the higher tax on licenses at the DMV. I would rather have the higher fees at DMV and a surplus than what we've ended up with in this state. Let him bo back to making bad movies and lots of money so we can tax the hell out of him and get our state back on track. Just because he hasn't taken a salary as Governor doesn't mean he hasn't cost us money while in office. The guy preaches green and drives a hummer around like he owns his own oil company. What he couldn't conduct business from a Honda? "
Mrs.D wrote on Jul 14, 2008 12:27 AM:
" The one who needs brushing up on mathematics is Herr Gropenfeuher himself. All he knows how to do is take away and not add. Just add to more problems.
And thank God he'll never be a Reagan; one was enough! "
about time wrote on Jul 14, 2008 10:13 PM:
" Reagan was the mirror opposite of Ed Kennedy so I guess we know who Mrs. D must like. Of course Kennedy is mighty white and we also know Mrs. D doesn't like "Whitey" from her others statements so maybe she likes that governor who was in office before Arnold. The one who almost totally ruined our state before Arnold thankfully got him fired by the voters. However, I do sadly agree with Fred that Arnold ran on one platform but has not delivered on much of it, but if we think back to who he replaced I'm still glad he is in office and he is definitely not the worst governor we have had. Our children are very smart and capable and can learn much more than they are being taught. Algebra is only about a 4 out of a 100 on the mathematics scale of knowledge and our schools are even worse on science. Private schools are light years ahead of most (I said most) public schools yet their students really are the same. It is the expectation to succeed by the teachers and parents that make the difference. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 15, 2008 2:09 PM:
" about time wrote on Jul 14, 2008 10:13 PM:
I concur with part of what you said. However, I don't think this state has had a decent governor since Edmond "Pat" Brown now there was an Educational Supporter like no other. While in office he planned the acquaduct, jobs were plentiful and change took place, good change.
Not since then have we had a Governor of such vision and forethought for what the state needed to grow and prosper.
All we've had is a bunch of Political liars who professed one paltform and inacted something entirely different. If Arnold cares so much about Caliefornya why doesn't he reach in his own pocket and bail us out, he put us here. He said he still has some left well deposit into the general fund and lets proceed. He can always make more money making fake life saving movies where he is the fake hero. Perhaps that is the best description of him Fake!!!
California is not anywhere close to that suberb of Russia and Germany Arnold came from. Have you notice how out of shape he is starting to look Hollywood her he comes. "
Teacher Number wrote on Jul 15, 2008 6:56 PM:
" To About Time: I also know Algebra (college). I have also tutored college students with learning disabilities in Algebra. I also teach algebra to my second grade students, and they always do quite well on their tests.
To Teacher: Unless "About time" has experience in the classroom, there will never an understanding. "
Mrs.D wrote on Jul 17, 2008 12:21 AM:
" RE: about time, Pre-algebra has been taught at Pioneer Middle School since 6th grade. I've seen my sons' homework.
Ronald Reagan=Worst. President. Ever. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 17, 2008 12:45 AM:
" A teacher wrote this paste and we wonder why our students aren't learning from them?
"To Teacher: Unless "About time" has experience in the classroom, there will never an understanding. " "
about time wrote on Jul 17, 2008 1:26 AM:
" I'm glad to hear that the teachers writing here are teaching algebra to second graders.... so why are all the other teachers so upset about teaching it to students in 8th grade ?? Well which is it, possible or impossible to teach it to them? Most educators here are whining about it, but others are teaching it to young children. How about a consistent answer from our teaching community since all of us non-teachers are not educated enough to comment even though we personally went through grade shcool, high school, and college? By the way, I've tutored many students over the years including college algebra and one thing is for sure, our public education system does a terrible job of teaching any level of math competance and many students I tutored were trying to get into teaching but the college requirement of Algebra was preventing them from graduating. The age of the student didn' really seem to matter, it was a lack of effort by their teachers when they were young that had held them back both in math skills and math knowledge. Math is a building block, not the building. "
about time wrote on Jul 17, 2008 1:55 AM:
" I guess what really bothers me the most is that when given a challenge to raise the standard for teaching math in grade school it sounds like many teachers/educators immediately want to state excuses why it can't be done or won't be easy or hate our governor or don't have time or don't have money and funding and on and on. All reasons to fail before they even bother start. If I was a teacher I would begin planning how to succeed not which reasons and excuses I will use when I fail. News flash, algebra includes adding, subtracting, multiplication, and division. If you teach algebra you also teach those other novel concepts. The basics are reading, writing, and math so why shouldn't we want and expect more math skills from our students. If second graders can really learn some algebra then can't everybody? Back in high school my counselor discouraged me from taking honors math classes, his logic was why would you even want to take something harder than you have to. In fact they discouraged us and made it hard to take ANY honors classes. How things change. "
Watchdog Fred wrote on Jul 17, 2008 9:54 PM:
" To Scott Tucker we finally get on a subject you could talk about and you are a no show, what gives Scott? "
about time wrote on Jul 17, 2008 10:37 PM:
" To Mrs. D, you are confusing me a little bit here. You are mad at Arnold for trying to require that Algebra be taught in grade shcool, yet you are proud that your child is learning some algebra at Pioneer. Sounds like you only want your child to get a head and don't care if students in other schools never learn to count beyond their toes. This is typical of people who pretend to promote social and economic equality but don't support plans that would keep students in all schools learning at an equal level demonstrated by testing. As for worst president, I think Carter who was destroyed in the election against Reagan would win that title at least for the last 20 or 30 years back. Clinton was a real role model, who liked cigars and interns. Regan was direct and never compromised his values. People without values obviously will never like or understand Reagan. Mrs. D, are you actually saying you like George W Bush more than Reagan, that is what you said right???? "
In response wrote on Jul 18, 2008 3:11 PM:
" I have an idea how about insisting that high school students take FOUR years of math and science. I'm not exactly certain of the percentage - but I read that homework for elementary schools has increased by 70 % in the past 25 years yet high school homework has remained the same. Why are we shoving more on the younger students. Maybe we should be ok with some students maturing a bit later. Many high school students do not take four years of math - it isn't required. So they take electives - which are nice but if we are truly lacking in math and science we should focus our efforts there.
Stop insulting teachers like they are all the same. I know many who are hard workers who truly care about their students. Do you know what I resent ? People who make rude comments stereotyping everyone. Not all teachers are whiners or lazy so just STOP it didn't your mother teach you if you can't say something nice then just be quiet. "
Devils Advocate wrote on Jul 18, 2008 6:14 PM:
" I'll stop stereotyping teachers when their organizational leadership stops living up to the sterotype. Let's see, this article lists O'Connell, Stankovich, Aschwanden, Shaver, and Cox that feel its 'all just too hard'. Only Merlo was focused on how to make the mandate succeed. Frightens the heck out of me that the majority of our nation's children are being taught by lazy whiners. You'll pat yourselves on the back and everyone is supposed to think you are saints because 'teachers care'. Role models are evaluated and occasionly found wanting - if you don't like it, stop reinforcing the idea that what you do is so freakin' special. An even bigger joke is that we listen to teachers about the "needs" of the classroom environment, and all we get are more kids dropping out, decreasing test scores, and college students needing remedial math. Mathmatically speaking, if there are as many good teachers as bad teachers, than the AVERAGE results should stay the same. Sorry, bad teachers are the majority. Claim to be a "good" teacher, the odds suggest otherwise, so you just gonna have to prove it. "
Response to Devils Advocate wrote on Jul 18, 2008 8:49 PM:
" Here is a thought for you - what about the students? Have you ever considered that there are students who are mediocre or who can't do things? You speak of bad teachers what about bad students? Yes there are some bad teachers but I do not believe that is the majority. I also know that parents do not make their students assume responsiblity the way my parents generation did. This is the generation of blaming others. When I was in school I did algebra in 8th grade. Some students just couldn't, that didn't make them any less successful than me in the grand scheme of things. So do you believe that all students are the same? I have children, some have had no academic issues some did. Everyone learns at a different pace. I have no problem with a child who needs another year or even two to learn algebra. As for your daughters thank a higher power you did not have a child with a learning disorder. It is obvious that you have contempt for education and I'm not sure why - you claim your children were academically fine. Oh and I don't use Algebra in my real life. "
To Response wrote on Jul 19, 2008 3:24 PM:
" You are absolutely right. When I was in grade school, I difficulty learning to read. I was considered to be "dumb". It took me longer than anyone else. I never would have achieved standards at that time. In fact, I had low scores on the state test. Fortunately, math came easily to me. I worked hard and now I do have my degree. I still have difficulty with reading comprehension and it does take time for me, so I have to reread several times before I get it...but I do get it. "
about time wrote on Jul 23, 2008 10:18 PM:
" I agree with the idea of having 4 years of math and science in high school and also agree that all these worthless electives are a waste of time. Even college wastes way too much time on useless electives designed to do nothing but waste the time of people who know what they want. I took 5 years of math and science in high school. Sure it was hard, but nothing comes easy. If we can teach our kids to want to learn and to want to succeed then we are really teaching them something usefull. We also need to teach them that they can do it if they want to bad enough. I knew a girl in college who was from Japan. She couldn't write in English fast enough to keep up with the teacher's lecture in chemistry so she would write in Japanese then rewrite her notes in English each night. Japan taught her to succeed and to work hard if necessary to do it. Over here, we can't even get most students to take notes or to even want to take chemistry. "
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